Your are making a point that G3509 is used only once to refer to a crowd of people, and that is suppose to prove what? That G3507 means a crowd of people whenever you want it to?
I get annoyed with using Strong's numbers instead of words so I'll stop. When Jesus spoke of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven Hebrews hadn't been written yet. The apostles wouldn't have been using their New Testaments... along with the Strong's Dictionary at the back like some kind of secret decoder ring... to interpret Jesus' words because Strong's hadn't been written yet, and neither had much of the New Testament.
When Jesus ascended, He went behind a cloud, as the apostles witnessed. He will return in like manner as He left. Do you think He ascended and the apostles saw him until he went behind a crowd of people? If so, how did those people get up in the sky? And why doesn't Acts 1 say a 'cloud of witnesses' to clarify, and use νέφος instead of νέφος, which, as you point out, was only used ONE time in the whole Bible. In Hebrews 12, the passage says 'cloud of witnesses', not just cloud. It clarifies it.
And why are forms of νέφος instead of νέφος used in reference to the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven and the saints being caught up into the cloud?
He does return with angels, but why would you think the reference to clouds here has anything to do with angels? He ascended, went behind a cloud, and will return in like manner.... and references to His return mention clouds, so why allegoricalize it?
This is a rather linguistically convoluted argument and doesn't explain why he'd use ἀήρ. If you are talking about πνεῦμα and ψυχή, from which we get pneuma- and 'psyche', that makes sense. But why would being caught up into the air have to do with these words?
If you are listening to someone promoting an allegorical interpretation, you should ask whether it makes sense. You could also consider if there is a consistent use of the allegory that really holds up to examination. I've seen different arguments about the use of the word 'clouds' from amil folks. Honestly, I don't think there is much to build a pattern on as far as scripture interpretation goes.
Some allegorical interpretations are so far fetched that I'd expect the only rational approach to believing in it is if someone says, 'Thus saith the Lord, this word means such and such' and you believed they were a prophet. Otherwise, it looks like weird far-fetched guesswork.
Another good question is to ask if there is any chance at all an original listener or reader of the book would have a chance of understanding your interpretation.[/QUOTE]
If one was having trouble understanding what Inha
Your are making a point that G3509 is used only once to refer to a crowd of people, and that is suppose to prove what? That G3507 means a crowd of people whenever you want it to?
I get annoyed with using Strong's numbers instead of words so I'll stop. When Jesus spoke of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven Hebrews hadn't been written yet. The apostles wouldn't have been using their New Testaments... along with the Strong's Dictionary at the back like some kind of secret decoder ring... to interpret Jesus' words because Strong's hadn't been written yet, and neither had much of the New Testament.
When Jesus ascended, He went behind a cloud, as the apostles witnessed. He will return in like manner as He left. Do you think He ascended and the apostles saw him until he went behind a crowd of people? If so, how did those people get up in the sky? And why doesn't Acts 1 say a 'cloud of witnesses' to clarify, and use νέφος instead of νέφος, which, as you point out, was only used ONE time in the whole Bible. In Hebrews 12, the passage says 'cloud of witnesses', not just cloud. It clarifies it.
And why are forms of νέφος instead of νέφος used in reference to the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven and the saints being caught up into the cloud?
He does return with angels, but why would you think the reference to clouds here has anything to do with angels? He ascended, went behind a cloud, and will return in like manner.... and references to His return mention clouds, so why allegoricalize it?
This is a rather linguistically convoluted argument and doesn't explain why he'd use ἀήρ. If you are talking about πνεῦμα and ψυχή, from which we get pneuma- and 'psyche', that makes sense. But why would being caught up into the air have to do with these words?
If you are listening to someone promoting an allegorical interpretation, you should ask whether it makes sense. You could also consider if there is a consistent use of the allegory that really holds up to examination. I've seen different arguments about the use of the word 'clouds' from amil folks. Honestly, I don't think there is much to build a pattern on as far as scripture interpretation goes.
Some allegorical interpretations are so far fetched that I'd expect the only rational approach to believing in it is if someone says, 'Thus saith the Lord, this word means such and such' and you believed they were a prophet. Otherwise, it looks like weird far-fetched guesswork.
Another good question is to ask if there is any chance at all an original listener or reader of the book would have a chance of understanding your interpretation.[/QUOTE]
How do you believe people interpreted this before 1830? Was not this originally from port Glasgow, Scotland, in the Spring of the year A.D. 1830, a bedridden woman had a revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in where she was shown what has become to be known as "The Rapture Of The Church." Prior to this day, the concept of an 'at any moment, fly away doctrine' (Rapture) was unknown. Within the first few paragraphs of her monumental Scripture-riddled statement. Ms. Macdonald makes an ominous statement about her vision, in that at first, at the time of the vision, it felt as though there was "Great darkness" and "Error" about it. This is something that rapture believers seem to always leave out.
Below, I have quoted from the first few paragraphs of her infamous 'Rapture of the Church' revelation, taken from Ms. Margaret Macdonald's own handwritten account of her 1830 pre-trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. And also found in The restoration of Apostles and prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. And also found in The incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A:
"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light."
-- Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)
Ms. MacDonald then goes on to outline a series of 'visions' now known as the Rapture Doctrine. The spirit world is very real, but there is the Holy Spirit of God and there are satan's evil spirits, demons and the like. This is why the Bible strictly prohibits the conjuring up of spirits and communicating with the dead (Necromancy). Margaret Macdonald might well have been visited by a spirit on her sick bed that day, an evil spirit!
I Jn 4:1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)
Just as the young girl below who though she was visiting with the Mother Mary. Observe below as satan fulfils the Scripture: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" {2 Cor 11:14}:
"He was ugly, horribly ugly. You cannot imagine how ugly, he almost killed me with his gaze, I almost fainted. Then Satan went away and Our Lady came and said to me: "...renew the use of holy water, wear blessed objects and holy objects and put them in your homes." "
-- Mirjana Dragicevic, describing a Mother Mary Apparition
in Medjugorje Yugoslavia, on April 14, 1982.
After Macdonald's vision was made known in town, two preachers heard of it, repackaged it as their own and sold it to the world. Hence, the ungodly Rapture 'Doctrine' is born in the Spring of A.D. 1830. There is some indication that the Roman Catholic Jesuit priesthood had some hand in this but as of now I cannot satisfactorily document this.
Even before discussions of this so called event “rapture” one must be honest and admit this is a new age concept.
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