There will be no Rapture!!!
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Please clarify ^ .
Do you mean, I "see" in M. MacDonald's description of her dream?
Or what?
[To be clear, I am not "Post-Trib" (I "see" that NOWHERE in Scripture)... just so the readers of this thread don't become confused by this post
]
Do you mean, I "see" in M. MacDonald's description of her dream?
Or what?
[To be clear, I am not "Post-Trib" (I "see" that NOWHERE in Scripture)... just so the readers of this thread don't become confused by this post
]
I wonder if there's a "church fathers" worship cult out there, masquerading as Christians, but who follow those non-inspired men as if they were inspired writers... Could be, but the multitudes of errors foisted by those men upon some of what is today called "Christendom" has me taking an even more critical look at those men and all their fallacies...
MM
MM
What REALLY strokes the cat's fur the wrong direction is to talk in some circles about how Yahshuah actually read from a Greek version of the OT scriptures, with only the Pharisees and others who were of the scholastic minority among the Jews who could even read, write, or even speak in Hebrew. Wishful thinking is prolific in those circles, if not scholarship and pursuit of truth.
MM
MM
I believe Scripture shows that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES at SEAL #1 which IS the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that Jesus spoke of (i.e. Matt24:4 / Mk13:5--the VERY FIRST ONE!)... and that "the DOTL" commences with "WRATH" (that which we are promised not to be here for)... The text in 1Th1:10 just says, "[the One delivering us out-from] THE WRATH COMING" (it doesn't specify "Satan's wrath" [only] which starts at MID-trib when 3.5 yrs are yet remaining till Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19).
I've pointed out in the past that Ezek38 (which I believe is a PART of the 2nd Seal "WARS"--compare the wording!) has "WRATH" words (God's), in vv.18-19 -
18Now on [/in] that day when Gog comes against the land of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, My wrath will flare up.
19In My zeal and fiery rage I proclaim that on that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that crawls upon the ground, and all mankind on the face of the earth will tremble at My presence. The mountains will be thrown down, the cliffs will collapse, and every wall will fall to the ground.
21And I will summon a sword against Gog on all My mountains, declares the Lord GOD, and every man’s sword will be against his brother. [see Rev6:4b,c--That is EARLY ON in the trib!!]
I've also pointed out how 39:7's "So WILL *I* MAKE My holy name KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" is similar language to that which took place when it says in Genesis 45:1, "And there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN unto HIS BRETHREN" (when there were YET FIVE YEARS REMAINING of the "7 year famine" - v.6)
[many more correlations could be mentioned... Not to mention, that Matt24:9 ("tribulation") also occurs IN THE FIRST HALF (prior to the AOD MID-point)]
I've pointed out in the past that Ezek38 (which I believe is a PART of the 2nd Seal "WARS"--compare the wording!) has "WRATH" words (God's), in vv.18-19 -
18Now on [/in] that day when Gog comes against the land of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, My wrath will flare up.
19In My zeal and fiery rage I proclaim that on that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that crawls upon the ground, and all mankind on the face of the earth will tremble at My presence. The mountains will be thrown down, the cliffs will collapse, and every wall will fall to the ground.
21And I will summon a sword against Gog on all My mountains, declares the Lord GOD, and every man’s sword will be against his brother. [see Rev6:4b,c--That is EARLY ON in the trib!!]
I've also pointed out how 39:7's "So WILL *I* MAKE My holy name KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" is similar language to that which took place when it says in Genesis 45:1, "And there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN unto HIS BRETHREN" (when there were YET FIVE YEARS REMAINING of the "7 year famine" - v.6)
[many more correlations could be mentioned... Not to mention, that Matt24:9 ("tribulation") also occurs IN THE FIRST HALF (prior to the AOD MID-point)]
The entire tribulation is Yah's wrath. For those out there who deny scripture to the extent that they will label it as Satan's wrath, they are deniers of the very inspired scripture that they claim to believe is of Yah!
Satan has much free reign in that period, but the PURPOSE for the entire 70 heptads is clearly stated in scripture:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I'm sure someone will point out differences in the corrupt translations out there, but none of that will ever remove the reality that it is the wrath of the Lamb that will be poured out upon the earth in that last heptad.
THIS is that is said during the opening of the seals in the first half of the tribulation:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The context is not speaking about Satan:
Revelation 6:15-16
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Generally speaking, what manner of satanically inspired people will thrust Satan into the place of Yah, but there are those out there who are doing just that!
MM
Satan has much free reign in that period, but the PURPOSE for the entire 70 heptads is clearly stated in scripture:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
I'm sure someone will point out differences in the corrupt translations out there, but none of that will ever remove the reality that it is the wrath of the Lamb that will be poured out upon the earth in that last heptad.
THIS is that is said during the opening of the seals in the first half of the tribulation:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The context is not speaking about Satan:
Revelation 6:15-16
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Generally speaking, what manner of satanically inspired people will thrust Satan into the place of Yah, but there are those out there who are doing just that!
MM
Jesus used the term Birth Pains in the first verses of Matthew 24 and we know for a fact that happened in 70 with the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
24:8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains
So to apply what you're saying means we've now had Birth Pains for almost 2,000 years.
24:8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains
So to apply what you're saying means we've now had Birth Pains for almost 2,000 years.
LOL
- John Nelson Darby and the Rapture: While John Darby is a central figure in popularizing the specific idea of a pre-tribulation rapture (before the tribulation period), there have been interpretations of scripture pointing towards a gathering of believers before the end times for centuries.
- Bible Verse: John 14:1-3 does mention Jesus preparing a place for believers and returning for them. How this translates to the rapture theology depends on the interpretation of other scriptures related to the end times.
- Debunking the Claim: It can be tricky to say something is definitively debunked in theology, as interpretations differ. There may be confusion about whether the idea of a rapture itself is being debunked, or the timing of the rapture relative to the tribulation.
- Eschatology: The study of the end times is called eschatology. It can be interesting to explore different viewpoints within Christianity on this topic.
Yes!
I believe when you break her dream down and compare it to what John wrote about the 7 Church examples of the sins, bondage, warnings, and when we compare it to Paul's writings and Jesus prophecy about possible that the very Elect being deceived (I see it as possible and maybe not for us who keep in the Word and are studying but many do not read and just believe what they're told and a false prophet could easily persuade them) + the Great Falling Away + Laodecia [riding the fence being lukewarm as we see today in many many Christians]...God in that dream confirmed what we read in our own Bible.
The people in her dream she describes spiritual blindness, great falling away, temptation = Christians. Sinners are already LOST. They won't be dealing with any of that until they get saved. So she clearly is describing the Saints in the HOUR of Temptation. And clearly shows the Rapture before the WRATH of SATAN which is Pre-WRATH.
I disagree (and have posted this many times) BECAUSE Luke 21:12 SAYS OF THOSE BEGINNING OF BIRTH PANGS, that "BEFORE ALL THESE" (*before ALL of the vv.8-11 "beginning of birth pangs"*) the FOLLOWING section must take place FIRST, "BEFORE ALL THESE":
So the SEQUENCE is spelled out as:
1 [first]) vv.12-24a,b THE 70 AD EVENTS (BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth pangs!);
2) "the beginning of birth pangs"... which Paul had said the INTIAL ONE ("birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman) is the ARRIVAL of "the DAY OF THE LORD" time period ("exactly like [hosper]"!); and those "beginning of birth pangs" ARE the "SEALS" of Rev6;
[and since Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 informs us that the things John was going to be "SHOW[n]" are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; same phrase as in Lk18:8 and Rom16:20--both FUTURE, not now!], and lead up to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19, then this is NOT describing things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicists have it! No! "IN QUICKNESS"!]
... "the beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8... AND Luke 21:8-11!!) [which ARE the "SEALS" at the START of the 7-yr period];
3) the "7 Trumpets" (the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" being at MID-trib; when Satan will then be "cast unto the earth" and "having great wrath"--the "GREAT" tribulation commences at this point [i.e. the SECOND HALF]);
4) the "7 Vials" ("IN WHICH the wrath of God is COMPLETED"--not "is started AND completed"... NO!)
5) Christ's Second Coming to the earth at the Armageddon time-slot, FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER")
[note: this is not a full list of ALL that will transpire (future)... just what is included in the Olivet Discourse portions!! (which NOWHERE covers the Subject of "our Rapture"!)]
So the SEQUENCE is spelled out as:
1 [first]) vv.12-24a,b THE 70 AD EVENTS (BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth pangs!);
2) "the beginning of birth pangs"... which Paul had said the INTIAL ONE ("birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman) is the ARRIVAL of "the DAY OF THE LORD" time period ("exactly like [hosper]"!); and those "beginning of birth pangs" ARE the "SEALS" of Rev6;
[and since Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 informs us that the things John was going to be "SHOW[n]" are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; same phrase as in Lk18:8 and Rom16:20--both FUTURE, not now!], and lead up to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19, then this is NOT describing things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicists have it! No! "IN QUICKNESS"!]
... "the beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8... AND Luke 21:8-11!!) [which ARE the "SEALS" at the START of the 7-yr period];
3) the "7 Trumpets" (the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" being at MID-trib; when Satan will then be "cast unto the earth" and "having great wrath"--the "GREAT" tribulation commences at this point [i.e. the SECOND HALF]);
4) the "7 Vials" ("IN WHICH the wrath of God is COMPLETED"--not "is started AND completed"... NO!)
5) Christ's Second Coming to the earth at the Armageddon time-slot, FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER")
[note: this is not a full list of ALL that will transpire (future)... just what is included in the Olivet Discourse portions!! (which NOWHERE covers the Subject of "our Rapture"!)]
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