There will be no Rapture!!!

[FollowerofShiloh]

Repetition of this nonsense doesn't make this falsehood any more true than repetition of any and all other falsehoods. That may work in the minds of the mindless masses out there who are a products of mass media, but not any card carrying skeptic who questions all things as we are instructed to do within scripture. Those who embrace falsehoods will always see good in their falsehoods, and praise the falsehoods, but, again, that doesn't make the falsehoods true.

MM

You are the ONE who repetitiously continues to repeat the doctrine of a Well Known Heretic, not me!
So, STOP doing it!

I find intriguing that every doctrine promoted by Darby was deemed heresy but the modern Church adopted one of them anyway.
How can a man get everything wrong but for some reason some want to believe he got one right?
I believe Einstein defined this phenom the best...

 

[Musicmaster]

You are the ONE who repetitiously continues to repeat the doctrine of a Well Known Heretic, not me!
So, STOP doing it!

I find intriguing that every doctrine promoted by Darby was deemed heresy but the modern Church adopted one of them anyway.
How can a man get everything wrong but for some reason some want to believe he got one right?
I believe Einstein defined this phenom the best...

This fixation upon Darby is (yawn) also just as tiring... I have never read his stuff, and so don't really see your claim of his being the inventor of what I've been discussing as having any credibility.

Nice try, but no. It's a failed association.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

This fixation upon Darby is (yawn) also just as tiring... I have never read his stuff, and so don't really see your claim of his being the inventor of what I've been discussing as having any credibility.

Nice try, but no. It's a failed association.

MM

Satan prophesies too.
The source of the Prophesy matters.
A Heretic is always a Heretic FOREVER.

 

[Musicmaster]

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So, at the second coming of Yahshuah, He comes with wrath, and has a blood spattered robe, on a white horse, and having a double edged sword. That is not at all what the two angels said in the above quote. Hmm. At His ascension, He was showering them with blessings and instructions, not destroying enemies, and He was not on a horse, did not have a sword. Wow, and yet I have encountered those who say the two events are one and the same...

This is the point where He said He would come back for us so that we may be where He is.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So, at the second coming of Yahshuah, He comes with wrath, and has a blood spattered robe, on a white horse, and having a double edged sword. That is not at all what the two angels said in the above quote. Hmm. At His ascension, He was showering them with blessings and instructions, not destroying enemies, and He was not on a horse, did not have a sword. Wow, and yet I have encountered those who say the two events are one and the same...

This is the point where He said He would come back for us so that we may be where He is.

MM

God is also Pouring out His Spirit during this time which you seem to avoid. Not everyone is suffering from the WRATH of God like you want us to believe during Tribulation.

Joel:
1. And it shall come to pass that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh before the great and terrible day of HaShem come

We know this is about the Second Coming because Joel describes the Tribulation Period when Jesus Returns:

3. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

4. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of HaShem come.

^
It matches the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

 

[Musicmaster]

God is also Pouring out His Spirit during this time which you seem to avoid. Not everyone is suffering from the WRATH of God like you want us to believe during Tribulation.

Joel:
1. And it shall come to pass that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh before the great and terrible day of HaShem come

We know this is about the Second Coming because Joel describes the Tribulation Period when Jesus Returns:

3. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

4. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of HaShem come.

^
It matches the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

I have not avoided it. I simply don't place it where it doesn't belong.

Additionally, what's manic are those scholars out there who strangely have a following of their own, fully believing that one manuscript...just one stinking, single manuscript, which renders the 24 elders speaking in second person, just one manuscript, mind you, somehow overshadows, with any degree of credibility over all others, and that was altered as much as five times in places, is magically authoritative over thousands of others! It would almost be easier to believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddie than letting just one manuscript force all others into the shadows of untrustworthiness.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I have not avoided it. I simply don't place it where it doesn't belong.

Additionally, what's manic are those scholars out there who strangely have a following of their own, fully believing that one manuscript...just one stinking, single manuscript, which renders the 24 elders speaking in second person, just one manuscript, mind you, somehow overshadows, with any degree of credibility over all others, and that was altered as much as five times in places, is magically authoritative over thousands of others! It would almost be easier to believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddie than letting just one manuscript force all others into the shadows of untrustworthiness.

MM

God told Joel it happens BEFORE the Second Coming and gives the SAME descriptions that Jesus gives found in TRIBULATION. So there is no other place to put it than outside of flat out DENIAL!

 

[Musicmaster]

God told Joel it happens BEFORE the Second Coming and gives the SAME descriptions that Jesus gives found in TRIBULATION. So there is no other place to put it than outside of flat out DENIAL!

With the use of that warped translation, it seems to say something other than what it actually says in the Septuagint. That verse actually reads:

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

The Masoretic texts are also suspect for corruption by the rabbis who manipulated it in whatever way they saw fit.

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Additionally, what's manic are those scholars out there who strangely have a following of their own, fully believing that one manuscript...just one stinking, single manuscript, which renders the 24 elders speaking in second person, just one manuscript, mind you, somehow overshadows, with any degree of credibility over all others, and that was altered as much as five times in places, is magically authoritative over thousands of others! It would almost be easier to believe in the teachings of Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddie than letting just one manuscript force all others into the shadows of untrustworthiness.

I have a question regarding this (in the bold ^ ).

The video I posted earlier in this thread was saying that, Of the 24 manuscripts available on Rev5:9... 23 of them say "us" and only ONE (Codex Alexandrinus) leaves it blank / untranslated...

(I think I read elsewhere that because of its placement on the page, the bottom of one column and then continuing at the top of the next column, some suggest that it was a copyist error [to leave that word untranslated], as though they forgot it when starting at the top of the next column--and I believe I saw an image of that page where they circled this to point it out)

... My question would be, what do you believe the Alexandrinus says in that verse?

Does it leave the word "untranslated" [i.e. blank, where that word should be]? Or is there a different Greek word in that verse elsewhere, which effectively changes the idea from indicating an "us" idea, to conveying something else?

Anyone?

(... if I'm explaining this clearly enough, lol).








But I DO agree with you... with "23" against merely "1"... heavily outweighing...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^

[quoting Seiss] "The Codex Sinaiticus, however, which was discovered in 1860, and which is of equal antiquity and authority with the Codex Alexandrinus, contains it." [contains the "us"]

[then Seiss quotes Dr Tragillus] “on full examination was firmly convinced of its right place in the text before the Codex Sineaticus appeared and the presence of the “us” in that manuscript ought to settle the question of its genuiness forever."


-- Seiss, J. A. (1901). The Apocalypse: A Series of Special Lectures on the Revelation of Jesus Christ with Revised Text (Eighth Edition, Vol. 1).

 

[Genez]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

The Tribulation will be the greatest war fought on earth....

Before its declaration of war a nation will withdraw its ambassadors.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

With the use of that warped translation, it seems to say something other than what it actually says in the Septuagint. That verse actually reads:

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

The Masoretic texts are also suspect for corruption by the rabbis who manipulated it in whatever way they saw fit.

MM

That's the Tanakh, not the Hellenized Greek, I am using from the same Tanakh that Jesus used.

You will go to any lengths to keep a heretic's lie.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The source of the Prophesy matters.
A Heretic is always a Heretic FOREVER.

But "Darby" was not the "source" of the doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture.




More than one person in this Thread has pointed out people WELL-BEFORE "Darby" who [also] DISTINGUISHED (time-wise) between our "Rapture" and Christ's "Second Coming [to the earth]".

So how can "Darby" have possibly been the originator / source of it, as you suggest?

 

[Musicmaster]

I have a question regarding this (in the bold ^ ).

The video I posted earlier in this thread was saying that, Of the 24 manuscripts available on Rev5:9... 23 of them say "us" and only ONE (Codex Alexandrinus) leaves it blank / untranslated...

(I think I read elsewhere that because of its placement on the page, the bottom of one column and then continuing at the top of the next column, some suggest that it was a copyist error [to leave that word untranslated], as though they forgot it when starting at the top of the next column--and I believe I saw an image of that page where they circled this to point it out)

... My question would be, what do you believe the Alexandrinus says in that verse?

Does it leave the word "untranslated" [i.e. blank, where that word should be]? Or is there a different Greek word in that verse elsewhere, which effectively changes the idea from indicating an "us" idea, to conveying something else?

Anyone?

(... if I'm explaining this clearly enough, lol).








But I DO agree with you... with "23" against merely "1"... heavily outweighing...

We can see above the brushing aside of the Septuagint by calling it "Hellenized," as if that's some sort of slap in the face of facts that are contrary. Greek became the official language of Egypt, Syria over into the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea. The Septuagint translation made the Hebrew scriptures available, both to the Jews who no longer spoke their ancestral language and to the entire Greek-speaking world. The Septuagint later became the Bible of the Greek-speaking early Church, and is quite frequently quoted in the New Testament. It is even said that 99% of first century Jews could not speak or read Hebrew and used the Greek version in their Synagogues in and outside of Judea beginning in 280 BC, which means that Yahshuah likely read from the Septuagint, contrary to some people's dogmas to the contrary.

Hellenized? Yeah, I'll take that any day over the dogmatic adherence to wishful thinking and fables.

Good post, and good question.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

But "Darby" was not the "source" of the doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture.




More than one person in this Thread has pointed out people WELL-BEFORE "Darby" who [also] DISTINGUISHED (time-wise) between our "Rapture" and Christ's "Second Coming [to the earth]".

So how can "Darby" have possibly been the originator / source of it, as you suggest?

It won't do any good. There are many out there who simply will not budge away from their bias against the blessed hope of which Paul spoke to the believers in Thessalonica. To some, their idea of the blessed hope is trying to survive the first half of the tribulation when 1 out every two people on this earth, a full 1/2 of all the population of planet earth, are going to die, AND they think Yah will protect the saints on this earth through all that!

Wishful thinking...AND that's their "blessed hope." No thanks. They can stay here if they want, but not me.

They will need all the good luck they can muster, because the Lord isn't going to be protecting the "saints" during that time (notice the absence of any mention of the Church throughout all those chapters Revelation 6-21). Ahh, but there are those who fancy themselves to be qualified to jam "Church" into those chapters at will...

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

But "Darby" was not the "source" of the doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture.




More than one person in this Thread has pointed out people WELL-BEFORE "Darby" who [also] DISTINGUISHED (time-wise) between our "Rapture" and Christ's "Second Coming [to the earth]".

So how can "Darby" have possibly been the originator / source of it, as you suggest?

No but people surrounding the doctrine were reported to be questionable including the woman who had the dream.

It cracks me up many preach women can't preach because the Bible proclaims it but will hold onto a dream by a woman [keep women SILENCED in the Church - Apostle Paul]..

If a woman can't preach because she cannot be anointed then her dreams can't be anointed either.

Wished you people make up your minds.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Me personally, I've study the surroundings to the Corinthians addition and Titus and believe as the Church Fathers claim that Paul wrote a LETTER and listed things according to Pagan Practices but it was not truly intended to be part of the Canon itself.

1. We know the Church in Corinth was meeting at a woman's home. That has been proven fact. Paul agreed to this arrangement. So there's ""no way"" Paul is telling the woman who owns the home to keep silence in her own home.

1A. But we also know the pagan practices near the Corinthians church and believe Paul was addressing that issue.

IF...IF...IF...We could see the literal full LETTER Paul wrote there is a belief it separates itself into paragraphs addressing each question the churches were asking Paul.

And we know SCRIPTURE would be one complete thought with no chapter and verses ((unlike)) a LETTER would be written.


So, me personally, I believe, because the prophet Joel wrote: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit...

We know:
1. Servants were known as MEN
2. Handmaids were known as WOMEN

That God is ""pouring out His Spirit"" on both Men and Women shows us Women can be preachers. When God pours out His Spirit it's not just to save people but to [[USE THEM MIGHTILY FOR THE WORKS OF GOD]].


The woman's Dream in question, for me, confirms the Rapture. But the dream includes in the beginning that very much describes the First Half of Tribulation before the actual WRATH of SATAN is allowed to make War on the Saints. But many diregard almost 100 words of her dream to make the FALSE claim of Pre-Trib.

But she describes spiritual blindness, great falling away, temptation. Sinners are already LOST. They won't be dealing with any of that until they get saved. So she clearly is describing the Saints in the HOUR of Temptation. And clearly shows the Rapture before the WRATH of SATAN which is Pre-WRATH.



But like I have already stated, many are in purposeful DENIAL of what she describes in the first portion of her dream.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

^
disregard*

But many ((diregard)) almost 100 words of her dream to make the FALSE claim of Pre-Trib.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No but people surrounding the doctrine were reported to be questionable including the woman who had the dream.

And some of us already pointed out to you (wasn't it also in this thread?) that Margaret Macdonald's dream described a POST-trib Rapture!!

(NOT "PRE-")






Nobody is listening to M. MacDonald! Hello! (i.e. Darby did not get his ideas FROM HER!)

She was a disciple of E. Irving (an Historicist who believed / taught a "POST-trib" Rapture)

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And some of us already pointed out to you (wasn't it also in this thread?) that Margaret Macdonald's dream described a POST-trib Rapture!!

(NOT "PRE-")






Nobody is listening to M. MacDonald! Hello!

You see Post Trib but it's not it is Pre-Wrath of Satan.
Before Satan is allowed to make WAR on the Saints.