The way of our Lord Jesus Christ

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#81
You should try to take the place of the victims and die if necessary. And be willing to suffer violence without resorting to it. There are many alternatives that enable you to love your enemies and stop them as you would have others do unto you if you were them.
Please give an example of stopping an intruder who is committing violence against your family. What would you do?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
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#82
But under the new covenant, they did exactly what the Sermon on the Mount calls for.
The New Testament was not in force during the sermon on the mount. Are you one of those red letter Christians?
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
977
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#83
NOV25 said: "I guess it's up to the individual Christian whether or not to carry a gun; I don't but I keep a few in the home and vehicle. John 18, when Peter cuts the soldiers ear off, apparently the first Christians carried and didn't hesitate to use it either."

Jesus rebuked Peter telling us to put away the sword. You are adding to God's word when you say "apparently the first Christians carried and didn't hesitate to use it either." This is a false claim that undermines Christ's and Paul's teachings on violence. No scripture supports it.
Ah, no I'm not Dave. What I'm doing here is called deductive reasoning, go ahead and google that term, I'll wait... While you do that we'll look at the verse in question.

John 18:10
Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear.

The statement, "apparently the first Christians carried and didn't hesitate to use it either", would be a good example of deductive reasoning. Did Peter have a sword? Yes. Was he carrying the sword? Yes. Did he cut off Malchus's ear? Yes. Can we deduce that Peter didn't hesitate to use the sword that he was carrying? Yes.

I have another term for you to google, its called faulty reasoning or fallacy. Never mind I'll just tell you what it is and give you a good example. A fallacy is a mistaken belief, especially based on an unsound argument. Fallacies are committed to manipulate by deception intentionally or unintentionally due to carelessness or ignorance. Example: "Jesus rebuked Peter telling us to put away the sword. You are adding to God's word when you say "apparently the first Christians carried and didn't hesitate to use it either." This is a false claim that undermines Christ's and Paul's teachings on violence. No scripture supports it."
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#84
We have a God of power and might, powerful and warlike towards evil. We are to take up arms against it. But God is also love in itself. When we give ourselves to God and take on His ways we take on kindness and compassion.

Yet, in my family it means strictly going to church and seeing yourselves as better than most men. On the day celebrating Christ's birth you bring out the Lenox special Christmas dishes and be careful that no more comes to dinner than you have place settings for.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#85
Ah, no I'm not Dave. What I'm doing here is called deductive reasoning, go ahead and google that term, I'll wait... While you do that we'll look at the verse in question.

John 18:10
Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear.

The statement, "apparently the first Christians carried and didn't hesitate to use it either", would be a good example of deductive reasoning. Did Peter have a sword? Yes. Was he carrying the sword? Yes. Did he cut off Malchus's ear? Yes. Can we deduce that Peter didn't hesitate to use the sword that he was carrying? Yes.

I have another term for you to google, its called faulty reasoning or fallacy. Never mind I'll just tell you what it is and give you a good example. A fallacy is a mistaken belief, especially based on an unsound argument. Fallacies are committed to manipulate by deception intentionally or unintentionally due to carelessness or ignorance. Example: "Jesus rebuked Peter telling us to put away the sword. You are adding to God's word when you say "apparently the first Christians carried and didn't hesitate to use it either." This is a false claim that undermines Christ's and Paul's teachings on violence. No scripture supports it."
You need to find violent self-defense practiced by Jesus or any others in the NT before trying to claim a pro-violence position.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#86
The New Testament was not in force during the sermon on the mount. Are you one of those red letter Christians?
The teaching of Christ was. How do you justify doing the opposite of what he taught?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#88
How do you love your wife and children if you allow others to harm them?
How do you tell God you are only willing to follow Christ up to a point? And you love the creature more than the creator?

“As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Romans 8:36 (KJV 1900)
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
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#89
1. You have become so habituated to misinterpreting the Bible, that you are unable to even interpret that Scripture properly. "He was numbered with the transgressors" by being crucified between two malefactors. Meaning that He was treated as a criminal and given the worst Roman punishment.

2. Jesus rebuked Peter for trying to defend the Lord, when it was He express will to be taken captive and then crucified. God and Christ has pre-determined all that happened including Christ's betrayal by Judas, His being scourged and mocked, and then finally being crucified. Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.

3. That had nothing to do with His asking His disciples to carry swords for their own self-defense.
Matthew 26:51-53
…51At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?…
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#90
I am not aware of a place in the Bible where violence is expressly forbidden. I'm aware of commandments to not murder and to leave vengeance to God, but self-defense doesn't meet the definition of vengeance. Vengeance is defined as: "infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge"

So vengeance is revenge. Stopping someone from hurting someone isn't vengeance. It's called self-defense, a preventative measure to keep us safe. I would suggest that self-defense is Biblical.

The proper use of self-defense has to do with wisdom, understanding, and tact. In Luke 22:36, Jesus tells His remaining disciples, “If you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” Jesus knew that now was the time when His followers would be threatened, and He upheld their right to self-defense. Even though Peter cut off someone's ear in this chapter and was rebuked by Jesus for it, he was standing in the way of God's will trying to protect Jesus from being arrested. Jesus had already told them numerous times at this point that he will be arrested and crucified for the sins of the world.

In summary, I believe people are allowed to defend themselves but shouldn't do it in every situation. James 3:17 says we can pray for wisdom from heaven to ask God to give us judgement on when to act or not. If at all possible, live in peace with all people.
Find Paul, Jesus, or any other believer in the NT approving of it. Find approval for it anywhere in the Sermon on the mount.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
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#91
The teaching of Christ was. How do you justify doing the opposite of what he taught?
Actually, the NT was not in force until Christ shed His blood on the cross. There’s no Christian to be found in the sermon on the mount, just Jews under the law.

Hebrews 9
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#92
Actually, the NT was not in force until Christ shed His blood on the cross. There’s no Christian to be found in the sermon on the mount, just Jews under the law.

Hebrews 9
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
But John says if you do not have the Sermon, you do not have God.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
113
#93
How do you tell God you are only willing to follow Christ up to a point? And you love the creature more than the creator?

“As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Romans 8:36 (KJV 1900)
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

We are to try with everything that lies within us, to live at peace with our enemies, if it be possible. Sometimes it will not be possible because the other party does not want peace. God has allowed for self defense in this dark world.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#94
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

We are to try with everything that lies within us, to live at peace with our enemies, if it be possible. Sometimes it will not be possible because the other party does not want peace. God has allowed for self defense in this dark world.
Are you are making excuses for sin?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
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#95
But John says if you do not have the Sermon, you do not have God.
John is speaking to the Jew under the law.

Jesus said if you call someone a fool you’re in danger of hell fire. Paul called people fools. Was Paul in danger of hell fire?

The sermon on the mount is the constitution of living when Christ restores Israel and is ruling on this earth as King.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
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#96
Are you are making excuses for sin?
I have not sinned in this matter brother. You might want to check your own eyes first.😉

But you can bet, if a stranger comes into my home and tries to harm my family, I will love my family and defend them as Christ defends and loves the Church.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#97
I have not sinned in this matter brother. You might want to check your own eyes first.😉

But you can bet, if a stranger comes into my home and tries to harm my family, I will love my family and defend them as Christ defends and loves the Church.
Christ loves and defends the Church by appointing many to horrible deaths that earn the martyrs crown. And you would cheat yourself and loved ones out of this?
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#98
John is speaking to the Jew under the law.

Jesus said if you call someone a fool you’re in danger of hell fire. Paul called people fools. Was Paul in danger of hell fire?

The sermon on the mount is the constitution of living when Christ restores Israel and is ruling on this earth as King.
No exceptions. No Sermon = no Christ.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
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#99
Christ loves and defends the Church by appointing many to horrible deaths that earn the martyrs crown. And you would cheat yourself and loved ones out of this?
A martyr would be someone who died for the sake of the gospel. I’m talking about an intruder. Big difference.