The TWO WITNESSES

[Pilgrimshope]

I think we dwell too much on "who" they are. Their actions may be the more important factor.
Their character and the prophetic type the vision is drawing from.

I do find the following intriguing though.

Mark 3:17
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means ‘sons of thunder’),

Luke 9:54
When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, ‘Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?’
55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.

amen

“Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭19:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.”
‭‭2 Kings‬ ‭1:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.”
‭‭2 Chronicles‬ ‭7:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭1:16

I think the word of God is what has the power in all things and through time Gods word has done things like this to show his power through men whether Elijah , Solomon , whether in the case of the book of job , John and James request ect

this is why I believe the witnesses are the word of God through the law and prophets no matter the men the word of God is what is able to do the things the two witnesses do.

I think its interesting that for three and a half years they shut up the heaven so it can’t rain which again was something Elijah did by the word of God

“Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And Moses of course had power to turn water to blood by the word of God spoken to him first and also the plagues of Egypt.

I believe it’s a reference to the law and prophets because the law and prophets are the word of God which has the power to do those things through anyone who believes and has exhibited that power through men before . Whether shutting the heavens from rain for theee and a half years , pulling fire from heaven , sending plagues upon the earth , turning water to blood ect Personally I believe Elijah is a representation of the prophets and Moses a representation of the law

and both witness of Christ

 

[Hone]

Elijah yes, Moses? their is a case to be made for him, but what about Enoch? Elijah and Enoch are the only two people that have not died in the flesh so it could be them. The best thing to know is that Jesus will not return untill 31/2 days after the dead bodies lie in the street. We might not know the excact moment but Jesus has told us we will know the sings of the time. I look toward Jeruslem watching for the sings and time of the end.

The names you have provided are all worthy, and are witnesses to GOD and Christ.
But none of them were preaching out of darkness for 1260 years (1260 days)....they were in the old testament....
Studying the anti-Christ, helps with this topic.....and the only person to come back from the dead is JESUS, the others were resurrected.
so what happened to the two witnesses didn't happen to a human being...and we must remember the Bible is symbolic in its language as well....GODbless our search

 

[DavidTree]

In the Bible it states Rev: 11.3...."And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days, clothes in sackcloth"
The 1260 days mentioned here began in 538 and ended 1798, commonly known as the dark ages.
It also helps shed some light on who the anti- Christ is and the wound inflicted on it.......happy seeking brother's and sister's.

Well, i guess the Lord's Coming is long overdue - which dosen't make sense since He said He would shorten those days.

 

[Thewatchman]

The names you have provided are all worthy, and are witnesses to GOD and Christ.
But none of them were preaching out of darkness for 1260 years (1260 days)....they were in the old testament....
Studying the anti-Christ, helps with this topic.....and the only person to come back from the dead is JESUS, the others were resurrected.
so what happened to the two witnesses didn't happen to a human being...and we must remember the Bible is symbolic in its language as well....GODbless our search

You are right no one knowes just who the 2 witnesses are; but you are wrong about Elijah and Enoch neather saw death God took them while they were alive they did not see death. That is why I question Moses. It could be 2 people that are alive and here on earth today. What matters is that they will come, they will preach in the streets of Jerusalem, Satan will come against them, there dead bodies will lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 days then the 7th trump will sound and Jesus will return.

 

[Thewatchman]

The names you have provided are all worthy, and are witnesses to GOD and Christ.
But none of them were preaching out of darkness for 1260 years (1260 days)....they were in the old testament....
Studying the anti-Christ, helps with this topic.....and the only person to come back from the dead is JESUS, the others were resurrected.
so what happened to the two witnesses didn't happen to a human being...and we must remember the Bible is symbolic in its language as well....GODbless our search

Jesus did say in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that He would shorten those days for the elect's sake. What did He shorten the days to? Revelation 9:5 that they should be tormented five months.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[

Well, i guess the Lord's Coming is long overdue - which dosen't make sense since He said He would shorten those days.

yes have you noticed the literal
Interpretations of 3 and a half years from revelation never add up ? But the other 3 and a half years after the witnesses are taken up and the beast has his reign for 3 and a half years adds up to the number seven ? Which appears through the Bible from beginning to the end ?

it seems seven is a number that represents fullness of completion in the book of revelation we know that John is seeing a vision which sees images representing things. I would submit 3 and a half years is a representation of the Old Testament law and prophets and then the other three and a half years after that represents to the time of the gospel being preached in the world .

so Ot law and prophets

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭

and nt time of the gospel being preached in earth at war with Satan and his servants

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭

which would add up to seven being. It literal but the measire of complete time half represents Ted by the ot law and prophets , and half represented by this time

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭

I think if we realize revelation isn’t literal we can see much more In it but it’s only my thought.

it’s always the seventh angels trumpet or seventh seal or seventh vial poured out that concludes each Vision again revealing the completion of Gods plan rather than a literal Measure of time it seems to make a lot more sense when revelation is taken in this way .

We see this great beast boeng described in chapter 13 but later we find out it’s a representation of men and kingdoms rather than a literal giant beast and also the woman we see in revelation 12 is a representation of Israel who became filthy and adulterous later appear on the beast which again isn’t a literal beast but is revealing things by apocalypse

“So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom.

The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:3, 7-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve never understood why we understand things like the beast are representing other things from scripture but the. Take the number seven to be a literal Measurement and not a representation of things in scripture as the rest of revelation is

 

[Hone]

You are right no one knowes just who the 2 witnesses are; but you are wrong about Elijah and Enoch neather saw death God took them while they were alive they did not see death. That is why I question Moses. It could be 2 people that are alive and here on earth today. What matters is that they will come, they will preach in the streets of Jerusalem, Satan will come against them, there dead bodies will lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 days then the 7th trump will sound and Jesus will return.

YES but as you stated neither of theses two men died....but the two witnesses did and came back

 

[DavidTree]

Jesus did say in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that He would shorten those days for the elect's sake. What did He shorten the days to? Revelation 9:5 that they should be tormented five months.

who is being tormented in Rev 9

 

[Thewatchman]

YES but as you stated neither of theses two men died....but the two witnesses did and came back

Where does it say they died and came back. God took Elijah and Enoch so they are in Abrahams bosom along with Moses. Instead of asking who could the 2 witnesses be; We should be asking: Do you under stand Mark 13:14 & Matthew 24:15 Just what and who is this abomination spoken of by the prophet Danial that Jesus says if we have read it we need to understand it; in those same 2 chapters Jesus says learn the parable of the fig tree. Do you understand either? Jesus did not say maybe we should know it, or if your church ever gets around to teaching it . . . I don't know you I don't want you to thank I am judging you I am just asking the question that Jesus asked. Do you understand either one becouse it seams to be more important than who are the 2 witnesses Jesus did not tell us to learn who they are going to be just know they come before Me and 3 and 1/2 days after they are killed I will return.

 

[Hone]

If we all can work out who the anti-Christ is...it will go along way to helping us solve this puzzle as well.
The Bible is such an important factor in our understanding of GOD.
The Bible teaches us this understanding through literal, symbolic and prophetic texts...which also makes it very hard to understand.
It is also a history book and when combined with other literature, the words and the context take on whole new meanings...e.g....
the head of gold,
chest of silver.
torso of bronze,
legs of iron,
feet of iron and clay.
the Bible tells us,... but we have come to know through our (man) written history, that each represent's a nation and a time line.
The same applies to the two witnesses,who were in the dark but not completely covered, they even preached out of darkness in sack cloth.
I take this to mean....they had been hidden/taken away unsuccessfully,...that they were still heard in times of poverty and persecution.
but WHO did this to them?

 

[Hone]

Where does it say they died and came back. God took Elijah and Enoch so they are in Abrahams bosom along with Moses. Instead of asking who could the 2 witnesses be; We should be asking: Do you under stand Mark 13:14 & Matthew 24:15 Just what and who is this abomination spoken of by the prophet Danial that Jesus says if we have read it we need to understand it; in those same 2 chapters Jesus says learn the parable of the fig tree. Do you understand either? Jesus did not say maybe we should know it, or if your church ever gets around to teaching it . . . I don't know you I don't want you to thank I am judging you I am just asking the question that Jesus asked. Do you understand either one becouse it seams to be more important than who are the 2 witnesses Jesus did not tell us to learn who they are going to be just know they come before Me and 3 and 1/2 days after they are killed I will return.

sorry was meaning the two witnesses

 

[Thewatchman]

who is being tormented in Rev 9

who is being tormented in Rev 9

Good question. Revelation 9:4 tells us those who do not have the seal of God IN their foreheads. What is in or behind your forehead? It is your brain, your mind. Do you have that seal?

 

[Thewatchman]

If we all can work out who the anti-Christ is...it will go along way to helping us solve this puzzle as well.
The Bible is such an important factor in our understanding of GOD.
The Bible teaches us this understanding through literal, symbolic and prophetic texts...which also makes it very hard to understand.
It is also a history book and when combined with other literature, the words and the context take on whole new meanings...e.g....
the head of gold,
chest of silver.
torso of bronze,
legs of iron,
feet of iron and clay.
the Bible tells us,... but we have come to know through our (man) written history, that each represent's a nation and a time line.
The same applies to the two witnesses,who were in the dark but not completely covered, they even preached out of darkness in sack cloth.
I take this to mean....they had been hidden/taken away unsuccessfully,...that they were still heard in times of poverty and persecution.
but WHO did this to them?

 

[Thewatchman]

I will get back with you but have to run

 

[DavidTree]

Good question. Revelation 9:4 tells us those who do not have the seal of God IN their foreheads. What is in or behind your forehead? It is your brain, your mind. Do you have that seal?

My mind has the Kiss of God upon it.

 

[DavidTree]

Where does it say they died and came back. God took Elijah and Enoch so they are in Abrahams bosom along with Moses. Instead of asking who could the 2 witnesses be; We should be asking: Do you under stand Mark 13:14 & Matthew 24:15 Just what and who is this abomination spoken of by the prophet Danial that Jesus says if we have read it we need to understand it; in those same 2 chapters Jesus says learn the parable of the fig tree. Do you understand either? Jesus did not say maybe we should know it, or if your church ever gets around to teaching it . . . I don't know you I don't want you to thank I am judging you I am just asking the question that Jesus asked. Do you understand either one becouse it seams to be more important than who are the 2 witnesses Jesus did not tell us to learn who they are going to be just know they come before Me and 3 and 1/2 days after they are killed I will return.

When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. 12And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My mind has the Kiss of God upon it.

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

wouldn’t believing the gospel be how one is sealed ?

 

[DavidTree]

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

wouldn’t believing the gospel be how one is sealed ?

And it is not for man to see but only God and the angels of God and the fallen angels.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.

11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. 12And the witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched them.

do you think this is a literal Vision ?

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is that literal or is it an image representing a true message in scripture like this ?

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

…Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:22-24, 30-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Do you see what I mean ? The whole book of revelation is like that we’re seeing an apocalypse of the message in the Bible. The things in revelation represent established messages written in scripture. Revealing the overall plans of God for his creation

 

[Hone]

Good question. Revelation 9:4 tells us those who do not have the seal of God IN their foreheads. What is in or behind your forehead? It is your brain, your mind. Do you have that seal?

aren't they talking about non Christians ?