The Trinity.

[PaulThomson]

What is your problem? You act like witnessing to people has to be a "canned" response the way you do it or it don't count. What are you doing, still feeding on the milk of the word? One has to adapt to the circumstances when God gives you people to witness to. At times you only have time to plant seeds. At other times you can go into detail with the gospel.

I've talked to literally hundreds of Jehovah's Witnesses and during that time I never once had to bring up the Trinity. They bring it up and like I say to them, "Who is Jesus Christ" and go from there. What I want to know from you is do you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation? When you witness to people do you bring this up?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I agree. I am trinitarian, but I admit that nowhere in the Book of Acts does any preacher teach that their audience must believe that Jesus is God before people have believed enough of the gospel to be saved.

Trinitarianism is not gospel milk. And it is rarely taught with a clarity that is easily comprehended as being reasonable. God does not require someone to falsely confess they understand He is triune before he will justify them through faith in Jesus as their Saviour and Lord/King.

 

[CS1]

I agree. I am trinitarian, but I admit that nowhere in the Book of Acts does any preacher teach that their audience must believe that Jesus is God before people have believed enough of the gospel to be saved.

Trinitarianism is not gospel milk. And it is rarely taught with a clarity that is easily comprehended as being reasonable. God does not require someone to falsely confess they understand He is triune before he will justify them through faith in Jesus as their Saviour and Lord/King.

That is not true. The word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ are clear to those who come to HIM. Believe and confess He is Lord.
Jesus said no one comes unto the Father but by me. The Book of Acts


The birth of the Church was to testify that Jesus resurrected from the Dead and place one's faith in the redemptive work of the Cross. Then grow in the grace and Knowledge of the Lord.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

No, you can't. The Tri-unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one of the essential tenets of the Christian faith. Remove the Trinity and you no longer have Christianity.

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

It's not automatic that a person goes to hell just because they say they believe in Jesus only such as the united pentecostals denomination.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion

 

[PaulThomson]

That is not true. The word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ are clear to those who come to HIM. Believe and confess He is Lord.
Jesus said no one comes unto the Father but by me. The Book of Acts


The birth of the Church was to testify that Jesus resurrected from the Dead and place one's faith in the redemptive work of the Cross. Then grow in the grace and Knowledge of the Lord.

You said "That is not true", and then seem to have proceeded to agree with me.

 

[CS1]

You said "That is not true", and then seem to have proceeded to agree with me.

post 422 I guess I'm not understanding your point.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Jesus Christ is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration

 

[bluto]

Jesus Christ is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration

I have to ask if you personally believe that Jesus Christ is the person of the Holy Ghost? In other words are you a Oneness Pentecostal? Just asking for clarity. Thank You!

In Him,
bluto

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jesus Christ is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration

That is DEFINITELY NOT what is found in the Bible. And we are not free to make up our own theology.

 

[tylerbones1313]

I have to ask if you personally believe that Jesus Christ is the person of the Holy Ghost? In other words are you a Oneness Pentecostal? Just asking for clarity. Thank You!

In Him,
bluto

Let me explain what I believe this way. God is invisible and the fullest revelation we see of Him is in the Body of Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Breath of God also invisible. The fullness of the Godhead is found in Christ. I want to try my very best to leave denominationalism out of the picture and stick to the Word of God.

Colossians 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily," is a profound and significant verse in the Bible that encapsulates the essence of Christ's divinity and the completeness found in Him. Let's delve into the meaning of this verse and its implications for our faith.

The Fullness of the Godhead Bodily

The phrase "all the fulness of the Godhead" signifies that all the attributes and characteristics of God reside fully and completely in Jesus Christ. This means that Christ is not just a representation of God, but He is God Himself, incarnate in human flesh. He possesses all the divine attributes, including omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, and perfect holiness.

The term "bodily" emphasizes that Christ's divinity is not just a spiritual concept but has taken on a physical form. Jesus was not merely a human being; He was fully God and fully man, the Son of God and the Son of Man. This unique duality of Christ is essential to the Christian faith, as it allows for both divine redemption and human connection.

Completeness in Christ

The verse goes on to state that we are "complete in him," meaning that we find everything we need for salvation and spiritual fulfillment in Jesus Christ. He is the source of our justification, sanctification, and glorification. Through faith in Him, we are reconciled to God, transformed by His grace, and destined for eternal life.

The completeness found in Christ is not about self-sufficiency or self-reliance but about recognizing our insufficiency and finding our sufficiency in Him. It's about acknowledging our sinfulness and embracing His righteousness, our weakness and embracing His strength.

Implications for Our Faith

Colossians 2:9 has profound implications for our faith and daily walk with Christ. It reminds us that we should not seek fulfillment or satisfaction apart from Him. He is the ultimate source of meaning, purpose, and joy in our lives.

This verse also underscores the importance of Christ-centered living. When we understand the fullness of who He is and the completeness we find in Him, it transforms our priorities, motivations, and actions. We become more focused on His glory than our own, more driven by His love than our own desires.

In essence, Colossians 2:9 invites us to embrace the wholehearted surrender to Christ, recognizing His supremacy in our lives and finding our all in Him. It's a call to live in the fullness of His grace and experience the richness of His presence as our Savior and Lord.

 

[tylerbones1313]

That is DEFINITELY NOT what is found in the Bible. And we are not free to make up our own theology.

*God in creation*

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I know anyone with basic Bible knowledge knows The Word refers to Jesus Christ. Just clarifying for those who are just babes in Christ.

*Son in Redemption*

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We all know this one plainly explaining Christ as Son in Redemption. Noone I would think would disagree with that.

*Holy Ghost in Regeneration*

Romans 8:9: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Here are five specific ways in which the biblical doctrine of Christian monotheism differs from other present existing doctrines. (1) The Bible does not speak of an eternally existing “God the Son,” for the Son refers only to the Incarnation. (2) The phrase “three persons in one God” is inaccurate because there is no distinction of persons in God. If “persons” indicates a plurality of personalities, wills, minds, beings, or visible bodies, then it is incorrect because God is one being with one personality, will, and mind. He has one visible body—the glorified human body of Jesus Christ. (3) The term “three persons” is incorrect because there is no essential threeness about God. The only number relevant to God is one. He has many different roles, titles, manifestations, or attributes, and we cannot limit them to three. (4) Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for Jesus is the revealed name of God in the New Testament (John 5:43; Matthew 1:21; John 14:26). Therefore, we correctly administer water baptism using the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38). (5) Jesus is the incarnation of the fullness of God. He is the incarnation of the Father (the Word, the Spirit, Jehovah) not just the incarnation of a person called “God the Son.”
What is the essence of the doctrine of God as taught by the Bible? First, there is one indivisible God with no distinction of persons. Second, Jesus Christ is the fullness of the Godhead incarnate. He is God the Father—the Jehovah of the Old Testament—robed in flesh. All of God is in Jesus Christ, and we find all we need in Him. The only God we will ever see in heaven is Jesus Christ.

I am trying my best in Love and Grace and humbleness of Heart not use trinity, trinitarian, trinitarianism or oneness.

I believe that denominationalism has led most of us astray from the truth and simplicity of the Gospel. After all it's not a religion we belong to but a relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord Savior and God.

 

[tylerbones1313]

I have to ask if you personally believe that Jesus Christ is the person of the Holy Ghost? In other words are you a Oneness Pentecostal? Just asking for clarity. Thank You!

In Him,
bluto

I said:

Jesus Christ is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration would it make a difference if I would have said:

God is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration

and also if by the word persons you mean separate physical or corporeal bodies, than God is no longer absolutely One. Deut 6:4

 

[bluto]

I said:

Jesus Christ is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration would it make a difference if I would have said:

God is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration

and also if by the word persons you mean separate physical or corporeal bodies, than God is no longer absolutely One. Deut 6:4

I understand everything you stated so do you adhere to the Trinity doctrine and is it a Biblical teaching?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[JimmyTheLock]

That is DEFINITELY NOT what is found in the Bible. And we are not free to make up our own theology.

And yet... God said in His Word that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all ONE

3 is 1, and 1 is 3....Hard to explain that away

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

It's not automatic that a person goes to hell just because they say they believe in Jesus only such as the united pentecostals denomination.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion

 

[maxwel]

No, you can't. The Tri-unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one of the essential tenets of the Christian faith. Remove the Trinity and you no longer have Christianity.

It might be worthwhile to look at this whole issue a bit more closely, and tease apart some of the different issues:


1.) Oncefallen always stands for traditional and orthodox doctrine, and I greatly respect and appreciate that... it's desperately needed.

2.) I also hold to the historic doctrine of the trinity - so much so that I teach it, and debate to defend it.

3.) But the question here is not whether or not the trinity is a true doctrine, or whether or not it's an important doctrine; the question here is whether or not it must be understood in order for a person to be saved.

4.) Since, in the early church, it took some time for the doctrine of the trinity to be fully understood, it would seem that this fact alone might raise some doubt, not to the doctrine's veracity, but to it's necessity for salvation.

5.) But isn't it necessary for salvation that we understand the deity of Christ? Isn't it necessary to understand that God took on the form of a man, and that God himself died for our sins?

6.) Absolutely. It is absolutely necessary for salvation to understand that it was GOD who died for us on the cross.

7.) But here is where we get to the real issue: in order to believe in the deity of Christ, it is not a logical necessity to have a full understanding of the trinity. You can believe that Christ is God, and NOT have a proper understanding of the entire trinity... as many did in the very early church.

8.) I believe in the historic trinity, and I teach it, and I do everything to uphold it. But I don't believe a proper understanding of the trinity is required to believe in the deity of Christ... a doctrine which IS essential for salvation.
(Perhaps we're splitting hairs, but that's what we do here in the Bible Discussion Forum.)




Christian doctrine is worthy of our time, and it's worthy of serious thinking, and serious study.
Even if we disagree on certain points, I believe it honors God when we take his doctrines seriously enough to discuss and study them.

God Bless.
And Oncefallen, thank you for always standing up for the historic doctrines of the faith.


.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God said in His Word that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all ONE

But not the same person. They are three in one.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am trying my best in Love and Grace and humbleness of Heart not use trinity, trinitarian, trinitarianism or oneness.

No. You are doing your best to promote Anti-Trinitarianism, when the Bible is crystal clear tha THE TRIUNE GODHEAD IS THREE IN ONE. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is truly amazing that so many newcomers to CC start off by promoting false doctrines. In my view CC should state in its terms and conditions that anyone opposing the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity may not post anything.

 

[bluto]

I said:

Jesus Christ is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration would it make a difference if I would have said:

God is:
God in creation
Son in Redemption and
Holy Ghost in Regeneration

and also if by the word persons you mean separate physical or corporeal bodies, than God is no longer absolutely One. Deut 6:4

Actually I missed the following statement of yours although Nehemiah6 brought it up. "I am trying my best in Love and Grace and humbleness of Heart not use trinity, trinitarian, trinitarianism or oneness. "

Why are you doing your level best to not use trinity, trinitarian, trinitarianism or oneness? Let me explain something to you. I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. All one has to do is read Romans 8:9-11.

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." Now, I know you believe Jesus Christ is God but I also know your confused about not knowing the difference between the word "person" and "being." There is only one being of God, period. This one God CHOSE to reveal Himself as three distinct persons. Being is defined as the state or fact of existing/existence.

Person, all the qualities constituting one that exists; characteristics, personality and attributes. The Bible makes it extremely clear that there are three and only three persons who are identified as God in all of the ways that the Bible identifies God. By His name, titles, unique attributes (or nature), and His unique actions.

I mentioned to you the Oneness Pentecostal Church. They deny the Trinity and teach that Jesus Christ is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. To put it another way, Jesus is all three of them. Oneness teach "Modalism." That is the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature. If you have any questions I will be happy to address them.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[tylerbones1313]

I understand everything you stated so do you adhere to the Trinity doctrine and is it a Biblical teaching?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

and also if by the word persons you mean separate physical or corporeal bodies If this is what you mean by Trinity than the answer is no. But I will go on to say the word Trinity and Oneness are not found in the bible. But the Bible does teach that God is Absolutely One Deut. 6:4 Answer me this if the One being of God was to look into a mirror and see a reflection, who is that reflection?

 

[bluto]

and also if by the word persons you mean separate physical or corporeal bodies If this is what you mean by Trinity than the answer is no. But I will go on to say the word Trinity and Oneness are not found in the bible. But the Bible does teach that God is Absolutely One Deut. 6:4 Answer me this if the One being of God was to look into a mirror and see a reflection, who is that reflection?

Look tyler your simply not understanding the trinity teaching. The Lord God Almighty CHOSE to reveal Himself in three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and yet as you correctly teach that God is one and God is a spiritual being, or spirit. This is according to John 4:24.

There is absolutely NOTHING that can preclude God from becoming a man just like John 1:14 states. Angels are spiritual beings and God at times chose to reveal angels as men. One place is at Genesis 18 and there are other places as well. So your question about God looking in a mirror is mute. Your other question about the word trinity is not found in the Bible is also "mute."

The word "monotheism" is not found in the Bible but the Bible does teach that there is only one God. Also, I gave you the definition of "person" and "being." God is a person but He is not a human person ontological speaking. He has the attributes, characteristics of a person and we are made in His image. We don't have His characteristics or attributes of His person. And His deity is what separates Him from all that is not God. Now, what is so hard to understand about this?

I also explained to you that the Bible makes it clear that there are three and only three persons who are identified as God by His name, His title, unique attributes (or nature), and his unique actions. For example, God the Father is called God in numerous passages. Jesus is identified as God at John 20:28, Titus 2:13, John 1:1 and other places. The Holy Spirit is identified as God at Acts 5:3-4.

Jesus Himself said God the Father cannot be seen at John 5:37, John 6:46 and Paul at 1 Timothy 6:14. So here's a question for you from the OT. At Genesis 17:1, "Now when Abraham was ninety-nine years old, the Lord APPEARED to Abram and said to him, (this was a physical appearance of God) I, am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. Who appeared to Abraham claiming to be the Lord God Almighty?

Secondly, at Genesis 18:1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Who appeared to Abraham here?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[tylerbones1313]

Look tyler your simply not understanding the trinity teaching. The Lord God Almighty CHOSE to reveal Himself in three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and yet as you correctly teach that God is one and God is a spiritual being, or spirit. This is according to John 4:24.

There is absolutely NOTHING that can preclude God from becoming a man just like John 1:14 states. Angels are spiritual beings and God at times chose to reveal angels as men. One place is at Genesis 18 and there are other places as well. So your question about God looking in a mirror is mute. Your other question about the word trinity is not found in the Bible is also "mute."

The word "monotheism" is not found in the Bible but the Bible does teach that there is only one God. Also, I gave you the definition of "person" and "being." God is a person but He is not a human person ontological speaking. He has the attributes, characteristics of a person and we are made in His image. We don't have His characteristics or attributes of His person. And His deity is what separates Him from all that is not God. Now, what is so hard to understand about this?

I also explained to you that the Bible makes it clear that there are three and only three persons who are identified as God by His name, His title, unique attributes (or nature), and his unique actions. For example, God the Father is called God in numerous passages. Jesus is identified as God at John 20:28, Titus 2:13, John 1:1 and other places. The Holy Spirit is identified as God at Acts 5:3-4.

Jesus Himself said God the Father cannot be seen at John 5:37, John 6:46 and Paul at 1 Timothy 6:14. So here's a question for you from the OT. At Genesis 17:1, "Now when Abraham was ninety-nine years old, the Lord APPEARED to Abram and said to him, (this was a physical appearance of God) I, am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. Who appeared to Abraham claiming to be the Lord God Almighty?

Secondly, at Genesis 18:1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Who appeared to Abraham here?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The text does not tell us that Abraham had any distinct foresight of the manner of Christ’s birth. That was a mystery which remained locked up in the secret chambers of God’s counsels, until it seemed good to the Holy Ghost to reveal it to the prophet Isaiah. But the meaning of the words My day in the text must clearly be the day or season of Christ’s coming, and dwelling upon earth, the day or season of that earthly life into which He entered. This, then, is the day which our father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see, the day of the coming of Him in whom all the nations of the earth were to be blessed, the day of Christ’s coming to dwell upon earth, in order that He might deliver mankind from their sins.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. And the Jews said unto him, You’re not even fifty years old yet, and have you seen Abraham? And Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am (Joh_8:56-58).
This is it. This is His open plain declaration of His divinity. Using now that name of the eternal God. When Moses said, "Whom shall I say sent me?" "Say I Am that I Am hath sent thee." The name that expresses the eternal nature of God. "You’re not fifty years old. You mean that Abraham saw You?" And Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am."
Now they understood what He said because,
They took up stones to throw at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so he passed by (Joh_8:59).

Trying not to use personal thoughts as much as possible and where applied praying that God would lead the way. I try my very best to let Scripture interpret itself.