Coming out of discussion in one of the threads, "Can you be a true Christian and deny belief in the Trinity?"
Let's discuss.
Let's discuss.
The Trinity.
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No, you can't. The Tri-unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one of the essential tenets of the Christian faith. Remove the Trinity and you no longer have Christianity.
I agree with you. Yet it appears many on this forum would disagree. Sad!.
Well I have said the following for years. "I do not believe Trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. Romans 8:9-11.
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. VS10, And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Vs11, But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." Please notice the three persons of the Trinity in this text are all involved in ones salvation.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The Bible teaches the Word (which was God) became FLESH. So that is what you have to believe. Lets stick to the Scriptures
Well this is specious. So think about this carefully.
If one does not believe that Jesus is God who became sinless Man to die for his sins and rise again for his justification, he has already denied the Trinity, since that is two out of three divine persons. So in fact Trinitarianism is a requirement for salvation, since the one who believes must be also be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Also, when the Gospel is preached, sinners must hear that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all involved in his salvation, and the manner of their involvement must be presented. So the Holy Trinity is in fact embedded in the Gospel.
You should have actually quoted John 1:1 to go along with John 1:14: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was [1] with God, and [2] the Word was God... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
We have here already two persons of the Godhead, or 2/3rds of the Trinity. If a person denies this (as do the JWs) then there is nothing left. No point bringing in the Holy Spirit.
I know that people use this verse all the time.... but it really is not the best one to use .... I used to read it that way also but that is not what it says.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I know how people try to attribute this to Jesus Christ … But that is biblically wrong.
Logos (word) has a wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind, like reason (thus logic is related to logos) ….the other is the expression of that reason as, a word, saying, command, etc.
Logos is used in the Greek over 300X and translated over 35 different ways, including ….appearance, book, command, conversation, flattery, grievance, instruction, matter, message, ministry, proposal, question, report rumor, sentence, speaker, speaking,………… and more.
Jesus Christ it's not a lexicon definition of logos….and it does not say in the beginning was Jesus. The word (logos) is not synonymous with Jesus or even the Messiah …..The word logos in John_1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression…. his reason purpose and plan especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of himself.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by Him (God); and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In Him (God) was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (God), that all men through him (John) might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light (God).
Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ←[That’s God]
Jhn 1:10 He (God) was in the world, and the world was made by him (God), and the world knew him (God) not.
Jhn 1:11 He (God) came unto his own, and His own received him not. ←[His own… Israel]
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him (God), to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: his name = name sake
Now Jesus is on the scene
Jhn 1:13 Which (Jesus) was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I know how people try to attribute this to Jesus Christ … But that is biblically wrong.
Logos (word) has a wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind, like reason (thus logic is related to logos) ….the other is the expression of that reason as, a word, saying, command, etc.
Logos is used in the Greek over 300X and translated over 35 different ways, including ….appearance, book, command, conversation, flattery, grievance, instruction, matter, message, ministry, proposal, question, report rumor, sentence, speaker, speaking,………… and more.
Jesus Christ it's not a lexicon definition of logos….and it does not say in the beginning was Jesus. The word (logos) is not synonymous with Jesus or even the Messiah …..The word logos in John_1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression…. his reason purpose and plan especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of himself.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by Him (God); and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In Him (God) was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (God), that all men through him (John) might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light (God).
Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ←[That’s God]
Jhn 1:10 He (God) was in the world, and the world was made by him (God), and the world knew him (God) not.
Jhn 1:11 He (God) came unto his own, and His own received him not. ←[His own… Israel]
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him (God), to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: his name = name sake
Now Jesus is on the scene
Jhn 1:13 Which (Jesus) was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So what does it say? It is a very plain verse so how complicated is that?
I'm not sure if you have to understand the trinity, but you have to at least believe that Jesus Christ is God. That much, for sure.
Through the book of Acts, we see a transition taking place to how one receives the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Of course my statement is "specious/misleading" because you made it that way. This is what the cults do, especially the Jw's, only quote portions to make it look like it means what they want it to mean. Why did you not quote the rest of what I stated? Here is what you stated? "Not only is Trinitarianism a requirement for salvation so is getting water baptism or your not saved."
See how I made you statement mean what it does not mean? Unless of course you really do believe that water baptism is required for salvation then your teaching false doctrine, well do you? And another thing, regarding witnessing to others I follow what Jesus stated to His disciples at Matthew 16:15, "Who do people say that I am?" That's my focus and I very rarely ever get involved in explaining the Trinity unless I'm asked. Sometimes there is just not enough time.
Lastly, I give you Galatians 1:16, "to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood." And here's an oldie but a goody, "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness." (1 Corinthians 1:23).
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
To preach "Christ crucified" means to first of all tell the hearer that "God the Father" so loved the world (John 3:16). So there we already have 2/3rds of the Trinity. Then "to preach Christ crucified" is to also tell the hearer that whosoever repents and believes on Christ receives "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). AND THERE YOU HAVE THE FULLY TRINITY. So like I said, your argument is purely specious.
Are you poking fun at other Christian's beliefs? Before you start discussing the Trinity, you need to investigate the history of the Trinity because the topic of the Trinity has been under discussion since the third century AD. It was the main topic in the first ecumenical council ever held in Nicaea in 325 AD under Constantine, who invited 1800 bishops from all over the Roman empire with around 300 in attendance. Different ideas about the divinity of Jesus and His relationship to the Father had come up under the names of Modalism, Sabellianism, Arianism, Miletianism, etc. Constantine was the first Christian emperor of the Roman Empire and with time, Christianity became an accepted religion with the Edict of Milan in 315 AD and eventually the prevalent religion. Fearful that all of these conflicting beliefs would cause schisms in his empire, Constantine ordered the council so that the bishops would come to a consensus as to what Christians should believe. Topics discussed were Arianism, when to celebrate Easter, and Miletianism. Arius and his followers believed that Christ was a created being. Easter had been observed and tied to the Jewish observance of Passover. However, the bishops of Nicaea didn't want their holy day to be beholden to a Jewish holiday. The new rule was that Easter had to be held on a Sunday but not on Passover. The attendees settled on Easter being held each year on the first Sunday after the full moon after the vernal equinox. Easter falls between March 22 and April 25 using this formula. The most severe persecution of Christians occurred just before Constantine became emperor. Many bishops succumbed to torture and denounced their faith. So another topic of conversation was whether or not to accept them back. Most bishops said yes, but Miletius refused them back and said no, and even ordained bishops within and outside his diocese. He was denounced as a disturber of the peace, was allowed to remain a bishop as long as he would stop ordaining outside his diocese. At the end of the council, Arius was declared a heretic and exiled. Constantine ordered all of Arius' writings to be burned and declared that anyone found with his writings would be punished with death. Arianism still continued to grow. It was there that the concept of three personalities in one God, all being equally God was declared.
Five Major Problems with the Trinity by Sean Finnegan
In mathematics, for something to be true, it must always be true. To prove something false, all you have to do is provide a contradiction. Most people's belief on the Trinity is pretty much set so the plan is to be respectful of their belief and simply show that their belief is inadequate.
Our Strategy
Assume the Trinity is true and see from an internal perspective what problems there might be. People aren't willing to consider a new option until they are convinced that their old option is inadequate.
Problem #1. Jesus was a Jew who believed the same about God as other Jews. First century Jews did not believe in the Trinity. Their Scriptures proclaimed radical monotheism. The reason why the Jews do not believe in the Trinity, then or now, is because of the Jewish Scriptures that proclaim monotheism. Deut 4: 35, 39 To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. So acknowledge today and take to heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. In Mark 12: 28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth; for there is one God, and there is no other but he. And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. Jesus confessed the Shema, the core creed of Judaism, without altering it at all. How would the Jewish scribe have heard this? As a Trinitarian creed? If the Trinity was true, Jesus would have corrected or altered the Shema. Instead, he praises the scribe.
Problem #2 The Trinity is never explained in Scripture. Sure one can pull together a verse here and there, in order to find support for an a priori theory ( not based on evidence). There is not a book, a chapter, or a verse that mentions or explains God as a Trinity.
What is the Trinity?
one God in three persons (one being or essence with 3 personalities)
co-eternal (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed)
co-essential (they share the same essence)
co-equal (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God)
eternal generation (the begotten Son has always existed)
dual natures of Christ in one person (divine and human)
in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God)
two wills in Christ- divine and human- never conflict
The Trinity is like an oral tradition taught along side of Scripture passed down from the apostles (remember that we are assuming that the Trinity is true) from generation to generation, and it was never written down and no one really ever talked about it until the heretics came to challenge it. This is analogous to the Pharisees who made a big deal about maintaining tradition and were denounced by Jesus.
Is It Really Necessary If.....
it is never explained by Jesus
it is never preached as gospel in the book of Acts
it is never explained in the epistles of Paul, James, Peter, or John
it is just one theory among several which tries to explain God in light of Scripture
Problem #3 No Jews who converted to Christianity ever challenged the Trinity (lack of controversy). If the Trinity is true, then Jesus and His apostles must have believed it and taught it. The lack of controversy amongst the Jewish Christians shows that the subject was never elaborated on because it did not exist in their minds at that time. The NT is full of controversies, from factions to speaking in tongues to impropriety at communion, over whether Gentiles could be accepted into Christianity, over whether justification came through the works of the law or by faith, etc. The Trinity was not one of them.
Problem #4 God is always addressed using singular personal pronouns (you). In our language the pronoun "you" can be singular or plural. In the NT the singular or plural of "you" uses different word forms. God is always spoken of using singular personal pronouns (He, not they). God almost always speaks using singular personal pronouns (I,not we, my, not our, me, not us(except the four "us texts" in which God is including others in an action (Gen 1: 26, Gen 3: 22, Gen 11: 7, and Isaiah 6:8))). Singular personal pronouns are used for singular persons. If God were a trinity, we should find plural pronouns, but we don't. Thousands of times we are confronted by the fact that God is a single individual.
Problem #5 Jesus was not omniscient God knows everything that can be known, but if the Trinity is true, then Jesus is fully God, and so He should have full knowledge. Mark 13: 32 But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Jesus is confessing that there is something that He doesn't know.
What is your problem? You act like witnessing to people has to be a "canned" response the way you do it or it don't count. What are you doing, still feeding on the milk of the word? One has to adapt to the circumstances when God gives you people to witness to. At times you only have time to plant seeds. At other times you can go into detail with the gospel.
I've talked to literally hundreds of Jehovah's Witnesses and during that time I never once had to bring up the Trinity. They bring it up and like I say to them, "Who is Jesus Christ" and go from there. What I want to know from you is do you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation? When you witness to people do you bring this up?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Two bogus statements. Since Jesus proclaimed that He Himself is God, He did not believe the same as "other Jews".
And even before Christ came to earth, the Jewish rabbis who studied the Scriptures understood that Messiah would be divine. Alfred Edersheim -- a Hebrew Christian -- wrote The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah -- in which he quoted the rabbis. And when Christ addressed the High Priest at His mock trial He referred back to Daniel 7, and the High Priest falsely claimed that that was blasphemy.