The Trinity...my take.

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evyaniy

Guest
Not sure if this has been quoted in the thread yet.

Colossians 1

12 giving thanks to the Father, Who made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the holy ones in light, 13 Who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in Whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible YAH, the Firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, visible things and invisible things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together. 18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, Who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence. 19 For all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by Him, whether things on the earth or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
Does anyone acknowledge and agree that Psalm 119 is the Son's prayer for life and to be raised from the dead because of His obedience to His Father and the law in giving His life to save us?

That question may seem off topic but understanding the relationship between Father and Son during His earthly life as a Man is revealed through His prayers in the Psalms and especially Psalm 119.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I did...and am not wrong in what I am saying.

Unless you want to divulge the secret to us as to what "begotten" really means and your reasons for believing what you do about it.
The closest English wording for "only begotten" is "species-unique" or "one of a kind". It does not mean "fathered" (as of biological procreation). I give credit to Dr. Michael Heiser for this research-based view.
 
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Jesus is not the Father, but He is God... the Father is not Jesus the Son, but He is God... the Holy Spirit is neither the Son nor the Father, but He is God

The three of them are One.
Then you are not taking these scriptures at face value.

Again, can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18?

If you cannot, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3)...

And therefore do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).
 
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The Athanasian Creed was formulated due to Arianism, which is the same heresy that caused the church to formulate the Nicene Creed, Although Athenasius didn’t write it, the Creed was named after him. lived from A.D. 293-373.

Athanasius lived from about 293 to 373 AD, amd was known for his commitment to Christian Orthodoxy and the doctrine of the Trinity.

The first half of the Athenasius creed is devoted to describing the trinity, while the second half is devoted to the two part nature of Jesus, and clearly explains both.

(note: the word “catholic” is not referring to the Roman Catholic Church. Rather, it refers to Christianity as a whole. It is a general term that encompasses the entirety Christianity, Christians, and the Christian Church.)

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.​
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.​
Now this is the catholic faith:​
That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,​
neither blending their persons​
nor dividing their essence.​
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,​
the person of the Son is another,​
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.​
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,​
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.​
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.​
The Father is uncreated,​
the Son is uncreated,​
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.​
The Father is immeasurable,​
the Son is immeasurable,​
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.​
The Father is eternal,​
the Son is eternal,​
the Holy Spirit is eternal.​
And yet there are not three eternal beings;​
there is but one eternal being.​
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;​
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.​
Similarly, the Father is almighty,​
the Son is almighty,​
the Holy Spirit is almighty.​
Yet there are not three almighty beings;​
there is but one almighty being.​
Thus the Father is God,​
the Son is God,​
the Holy Spirit is God.​
Yet there are not three gods;​
there is but one God.​
Thus the Father is Lord,​
the Son is Lord,​
the Holy Spirit is Lord.​
Yet there are not three lords;​
there is but one Lord.​
Just as Christian truth compels us​
to confess each person individually​
as both God and Lord,​
so catholic religion forbids us​
to say that there are three gods or lords.​
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.​
The Son was neither made nor created;​
he was begotten from the Father alone.​
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;​
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.​
Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;​
there is one Son, not three sons;​
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.​
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,​
nothing is greater or smaller;​
in their entirety the three persons​
are coeternal and coequal with each other.​
So in everything, as was said earlier,​
we must worship their trinity in their unity​
and their unity in their trinity.​
Anyone then who desires to be saved​
should think thus about the trinity.​
But it is necessary for eternal salvation​
that one also believe in the incarnation​
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.​
Now this is the true faith:​
That we believe and confess​
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son,​
is both God and human, equally.​
He is God from the essence of the Father,​
begotten before time;​
and he is human from the essence of his mother,​
born in time;​
completely God, completely human,​
with a rational soul and human flesh;​
equal to the Father as regards divinity,​
less than the Father as regards humanity.​
Although he is God and human,​
yet Christ is not two, but one.​
He is one, however,​
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,​
but by God’s taking humanity to himself.​
He is one,​
certainly not by the blending of his essence,​
but by the unity of his person.​
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,​
so too the one Christ is both God and human.​
He suffered for our salvation;​
he descended to hell;​
he arose from the dead;​
he ascended to heaven;​
he is seated at the Father’s right hand;​
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.​
At his coming all people will arise bodily​
and give an accounting of their own deeds.​
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,​
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.​
This is the catholic faith:​
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.​
The Athanasian Creed.​
Ok this is the end of the subject for me and hopefully everyone else.​
Now, when the creed says that Jesus is uncreated, I take issue because the scripture tells us that Jesus "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." (Romans 1:3).

Athanasius later repents of making that statement when he tells us that Jesus is God and human.

In order to be human, He must have been created in His humanity;

and I believe, based on what it says in Luke 1:35, that He was begotten in the incarnation.

The Word was God (the Father, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)) in the beginning...John 1:1.

And therefore, Jesus was the Father in His pre-incarnate form.

As we can determine by comparing Matthew 28:19 to Acts 2:38, that the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost is "Jesus Christ" and that therefore the name of the Father is "Jesus Christ".

Therefore when we confess that Jesus Christ, we confess that the Father is come in the flesh;

And when we deny that the Father is come in flesh, we deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
 
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The closest English wording for "only begotten" is "species-unique" or "one of a kind". It does not mean "fathered" (as of biological procreation). I give credit to Dr. Michael Heiser for this research-based view.
It certainly does mean "fathered"...while I will not deny that it also means "species-unique".
 
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evyaniy

Guest
1 John 1-3

1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of life 2 (and the life was revealed, and we have seen, and testify, and declare to you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was revealed to us); 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Yeshua the Messiah.

Yahshua means Eternal Salvation which is Eternal Life.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
Revelations 19

11 I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He Who sat on it is called Faithful and True. In righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns. He has names written and a Name written which no one knows but He Himself. 13 He is clothed in a garment sprinkled with blood. His name is called “The Word of God.” 14 The armies which are in heaven, clothed in white, pure, fine linen, followed Him on white horses. 15 Out of His mouth proceeds a sharp, double-edged sword that with it he should strike the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He treads the wine press of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 He has on his garment and on His thigh a Name written, “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”
 
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evyaniy

Guest
The Son Who is the Word accomplishes the will of the Father. All things were created by Him and for Him as quoted from Colossians earlier.

Colossians 1

12 giving thanks to the Father, Who made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the holy ones in light, 13 Who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in Whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins.
15 He(the Son) is the image of the invisible YAH, the Firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, visible things and invisible things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together. 18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, Who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence. 19 For all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by Him, whether things on the earth or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
 
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Then you are not taking these scriptures at face value.

Again, can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18?

If you cannot, then you don't have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3)...

And therefore do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).
So, by your "x" I ascertain that you deny that Jesus is the Lord according to the definition presented in those scriptures.

I'm sorry for you.
 
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"Begat" means "fathered"; "only-begotten" does not.
Sure it does. It means that the "only-begotten" is the only one that is fathered by the one doing the begetting.

Of course, when Jesus spoke John 3:16, it was the case that Jesus was the "only-begotten".

Then He begat other children by their faith (1 Peter 1:3) after His resurrection.

So, now He is the "firstbegotten" (Hebrews 1:6).
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,330
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So, by your "x" I ascertain that you deny that Jesus is the Lord according to the definition presented in those scriptures.

I'm sorry for you.
Feeling sorry for yourself, I see. You might want to consider why. 😆
 
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evyaniy

Guest
@heartwashed - for what it may be worth - take a look at the OP of the following thread and tell me if it makes sense to you...?

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-god-word-father-son-and-the-trinity.72792/
Amazing you remembered this after so many years. It takes the mind on a ride and a couple reads to get what he is saying. Without necessarily agreeing on every point, what He explains helps with understanding some difficult to grasp Scripture.

Again, knowing the Son's prayers are revealed to us in the Psalms as well as the Spirit speaking to both Father and Son at times and the Father being quoted speaking to the Son, answers many questions especially about the Son. That is why knowing Psalm 119 is the Son's prayer for life and to be raised from the dead is so important. Only He could pray that prayer and it was to His Father as He lived His earthly life even though it was revealed by the Spirit centuries before He was born.
 
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Feeling sorry for yourself, I see. You might want to consider why. 😆
No, not really feeling sorry for myself.

I believe in and confess that Jesus is the Lord; even in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18.
 
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... "as I see it" ...

( Disclaimer: What follows is merely an attempt to describe my conceptualization, reasoning, and understanding of the true nature of God - according to the scriptures - with specific regard to 'identity'. )



Genesis 1:

[SUP]1[/SUP] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


The phrase 'In the beginning' is referring to our beginning - 'time and space', as we know it.

It is talking about the beginning of the heaven and the earth - when God created the heaven and the earth.

How did He create it?

He created it "by the Word of His mouth" -- He 'spoke' it into existence.

God said - and it was...

Now -- understand that - because of the true nature of God - the very Word that He speaks is literally 'alive'.

This is because God is 'life'. All life comes from God. All that comes from God is alive.

It is impossible for anything to "come out" from God and not be 'alive'.

This is the true nature of the existence of God.

This 'Word' - that "comes out" from God - that is 'alive' -- is an "extension" of Himself -- the "outward expression" of Himself to His creation.


John 1:

[SUP]1[/SUP] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2[/SUP] The same was in the beginning with God.


This "outward expression" of God to His creation -- which "was with God" - which "was God" - which "was in the beginning with God" -- was fully alive, and was fully God.

The Word did not "come into existence" - but, rather - "always was" - because of what is being said in verse 2 -- the Word already "was" at the beginning...

What these verses do not say is - that the 'Word' was 'Almighty God [ the Father ]' - in the "full personification" sense.

The Word was God; however, the Word was not [ "the actual", full, complete, "all-that-He-is" ] 'God the Father' Himself.

In the "full Godship" sense - yes.
In the "full personification" sense - no.


In terms of 'identity', this allows for a separate 'entity' that is [ fully ] God without being [ "the exacting original" ] 'God the Father'.

( "This is vitally important to the plan of salvation, as well as some other things involving the 'eternality' of God. And, not to mention, how He can have a Son without being His own Father..." )

In other words - there IS a separation - such that they are not "exactly identically" the same.

The separation exists in the difference between "God Himself" and "the outward expression of Himself" to His creation. Both are actually God. The difference is a matter of finite identity. The former is the Almighty 'personage' ( 'God the Father' ) - who has never been seen by man. ( Please understand the context -- in the "full personification" sense - not in the "effectual sense" of "the back parts" in Exodus 33:23 -- see John 1:18 below... ) The latter is the Almighty 'manifest' ( 'God the Word' ) - revealed to be seen by man.

God 'unseen' and God 'manifest' -- same God.

God the Father maintains His "rightful just 'private' dignified solemn sacred majestic holy existence"...
God the Word manifests His "rightful just 'public' dignified solemn sacred majestic holy existence"...

Also, the scope of the Word in this context goes beyond the text of the Bible ( which is called "the Word of God" ) - and includes "all things ever shown forth" in the "outward expression" of God to all of His creation.

So then - the Word is "the complete total-sum full living manifestation of the outward expression of God to His creation"...

The phrase 'In the beginning' means the exact same thing as it does in Genesis 1:1 -- and, does not represent the "beginning" of God, the Word, or Jesus.


John 1:

[SUP]3[/SUP] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


God the Word was the "means" or the "mechanism" - through which and by which - God the Father, "by the Word of His mouth", made everything.

It is perfectly legitimate and acceptable to say that God the Father created everything.

It is perfectly legitimate and acceptable to say that God the Word created everything.

Both of these statements are true and in perfect harmony.


John 1:

[SUP]4[/SUP] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

[SUP]10[/SUP] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[SUP]14[/SUP] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[SUP]18[/SUP] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Jesus was born into the world as a person - body, soul, and spirit. His 'body' was human flesh. His 'soul' was the Word. His 'spirit' was the Holy Spirit.

At His conception, His body was "new"; however, His soul and spirit already existed together before that time - as the Word.

The Word does not have a beginning, and has always been with the Father. ( John 1:1 )

Jesus the person -- the Godhead bodily ( Colossians 2:9 ) -- had a beginning ( through human conception by the Holy Spirit ); however, the Word ( "Jesus the person, minus His body" ) always was...

From verse 14:

The Word ( already existing ) was made ( took on the form of ) flesh ( human conception and birth ).

The sonship of Jesus rests totally in the virgin birth. There is no such thing as 'the Son of God' outside of the bodily existence of Jesus. The Word was not 'the Son of God' before, or outside of, the birth of Jesus --- 'Almighty God' is the Father, 'Jesus Christ' is the Son.

Now -- understand that - after Jesus was raised from the dead, with His 'glorified' body, He ( being God ) could ( I believe ) appear to Abraham, for example, in that very same resurrected body -- because, He could "step inside and outside of time" and "make appearances" whenever He wished.

As for the 'Trinity'...

I believe in "the 'triune' nature" of God. I do not tend to think of Him in the full sense of "three persons" -- because -- a 'person' ( in the full sense ) is generally thought of as having body, soul, and spirit. Of course, God the Father - Who is 'Soul and Spirit' - and has no body - is thought of as a person ( in the full sense ). However, the Holy Spirit is never thought of as having any "part" of a person ( in the full sense ) except 'spirit'. So - while all three might be considered a "person" - strictly by virtue of their 'spirit' ( which happens to be the Holy Spirit for all three ) - each of the three is not a "person" ( in the full sense ) - having body, soul, and spirit.

So then -- whether you want to use the word "person" or not -- there are three, which are the same God:


[TABLE="width: 500, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]God the Word / Jesus
[/TD]
[TD]body, soul, and spirit[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God the Father[/TD]
[TD]soul and spirit[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God the Holy Spirit[/TD]
[TD]spirit[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]






Confusing, isn't it?

:)
 
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I think that the Word is not separate in any way from the thought; as the Word is the expression of the thought. If the thought is "I AM" then the Word is also "I AM". If the thought is "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" then the Word is also "Jesus Christ of Nazareth". If the thought is "saved by grace through faith" then the Word is also "saved by grace through faith".

They cannot be separated.

Since we can determine from scripture that God is the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)), we can substitute that algebraically in John 1:1 and understand that,

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with <the Father>, and the Word was <the Father>.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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I think that the Word is not separate in any way from the thought; as the Word is the expression of the thought. If the thought is "I AM" then the Word is also "I AM". If the thought is "Jesus Christ of Nazareth" then the Word is also "Jesus Christ of Nazareth". If the thought is "saved by grace through faith" then the Word is also "saved by grace through faith".

They cannot be separated.

Since we can determine from scripture that God is the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)), we can substitute that algebraically in John 1:1 and understand that,

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with <the Father>, and the Word was <the Father>.
That's alot of hoops to jump through for someone who promotes taking verses at face value.