The tribulation
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you mean the time to prepare for Christs return from heaven is now ?
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJV
is this what your saying the rapture is ? Christs return from heaven to raise the dead and gather his people ? This day ?
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
Is the church waiting to be raptured or are we waiting for Jesus to return from heaven and end this faulty world and deliver us into eternal Life ?
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
Titus 2:11-13 KJV
show can the church be raptured if they are waiting for Jesus to return and gather them ?
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
Awee you preparing for Jesus to return at the end of the world after the tribulations of this world conclude ? Or to be magically raptured before that happens ? The Bible teaches us to live right and expect that Jesus will return some day to take us home
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJV
is this what your saying the rapture is ? Christs return from heaven to raise the dead and gather his people ? This day ?
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
Is the church waiting to be raptured or are we waiting for Jesus to return from heaven and end this faulty world and deliver us into eternal Life ?
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”
Titus 2:11-13 KJV
show can the church be raptured if they are waiting for Jesus to return and gather them ?
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
Awee you preparing for Jesus to return at the end of the world after the tribulations of this world conclude ? Or to be magically raptured before that happens ? The Bible teaches us to live right and expect that Jesus will return some day to take us home
Oh good!! Another "eschatologists" opinion!!!! Reminds me of the '70s when there was a popular belief that the Tribulation was near.
They were selling "Revelation food" (Dehydrated food), so when you couldn't buy or sell, you could still eat. It came in 3.5, and 7 year quantities (depending on your "theology").
Of course, THEY suggested that you buy the 7 year supply anyway in case your "Eschatology" was wrong (chuckle).
Eschatology" is nothing more than a religious term for "Rank speculation".
They were selling "Revelation food" (Dehydrated food), so when you couldn't buy or sell, you could still eat. It came in 3.5, and 7 year quantities (depending on your "theology").
Of course, THEY suggested that you buy the 7 year supply anyway in case your "Eschatology" was wrong (chuckle).
Eschatology" is nothing more than a religious term for "Rank speculation".
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● Rev 16:12 . . And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river
Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of
the east might be prepared.
That is curious because in modern warfare; rivers, and even oceans, present
no obstacle to military aircraft. But where are the airplanes in Revelation;
and where are all the mechanized conveyances? Well; there are none, and in
point of fact, war in Revelation is portrayed as fought on horseback and
armies move on foot. I have an uneasy feeling that the way of life with
which us modern folks are accustomed is coming to an end.
_
● Rev 16:12 . . And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river
Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of
the east might be prepared.
That is curious because in modern warfare; rivers, and even oceans, present
no obstacle to military aircraft. But where are the airplanes in Revelation;
and where are all the mechanized conveyances? Well; there are none, and in
point of fact, war in Revelation is portrayed as fought on horseback and
armies move on foot. I have an uneasy feeling that the way of life with
which us modern folks are accustomed is coming to an end.
_
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
We shall return with Him after the Tribulation.
We are delivered before the Tribulation. It is the unbeliveng Jew who shall be delivered through great Tribulation, not the Church.
Yes, in this present world, but the Bible also gives council to those who will be left behind, including many Jews.
I just did. The Church is heading for a Wedding, not a 7-Year Tribulation.
Yes, the Church will return with Him from the Uttermost part of Heaven, (But don't forget about the Tribulation Saints as well.)
Yes! We are not appointed to wrath but unto rapture! The pre-trib rapture will seem magical in a most wonderful way, but it shall be real! PTL!
Rejoice, my brother, for Christ hath won the Victory!
Amen!
Yes.
Yes.
We shall return with Him after the Tribulation.
We are delivered before the Tribulation. It is the unbeliveng Jew who shall be delivered through great Tribulation, not the Church.
Yes, in this present world, but the Bible also gives council to those who will be left behind, including many Jews.
I just did. The Church is heading for a Wedding, not a 7-Year Tribulation.
Yes, the Church will return with Him from the Uttermost part of Heaven, (But don't forget about the Tribulation Saints as well.)
Yes! We are not appointed to wrath but unto rapture! The pre-trib rapture will seem magical in a most wonderful way, but it shall be real! PTL!
Rejoice, my brother, for Christ hath won the Victory!Amen!
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● Rev 6:12 . . I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great
earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the
whole moon turned blood red
Astronomically, that depicts a solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse
simultaneously; which nature by itself cannot produce due to specific
alignment requirements.
● Rev 6:13 . . and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a
fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Those will likely be shooting stars (a.k.a. meteors) and possibly asteroids
too, rather than solar bodies like Polaris, Sirius, Betelgeuse, and/or Rigel
which would cause impacts that the Earth simply cannot accommodate due
to its Lilliputian size compared to the mass of those gargantuan objects.
● Rev 6:14a . .The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up
Whether that pertains to the entire cosmos or limited to the Earth's
atmosphere is uncertain, although it does seem a preview of Rev 20:11.
● Rev 6:14b . . and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
No doubt previous centuries of theologians were curious about that
prediction, but thanks to the relatively new science of plate tectonics, we
now know that the movement of mountains and islands has been occurring
all along; just not as noticeable as the shuffle depicted by Rev 16:14b.
Anyway, those events will quite naturally cause a world-wide panic.
● Rev 6:15-17 . . .Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the
rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and
among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the
rocks: Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne
and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come,
and who can stand?
_
● Rev 6:12 . . I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great
earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the
whole moon turned blood red
Astronomically, that depicts a solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse
simultaneously; which nature by itself cannot produce due to specific
alignment requirements.
● Rev 6:13 . . and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a
fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Those will likely be shooting stars (a.k.a. meteors) and possibly asteroids
too, rather than solar bodies like Polaris, Sirius, Betelgeuse, and/or Rigel
which would cause impacts that the Earth simply cannot accommodate due
to its Lilliputian size compared to the mass of those gargantuan objects.
● Rev 6:14a . .The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up
Whether that pertains to the entire cosmos or limited to the Earth's
atmosphere is uncertain, although it does seem a preview of Rev 20:11.
● Rev 6:14b . . and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
No doubt previous centuries of theologians were curious about that
prediction, but thanks to the relatively new science of plate tectonics, we
now know that the movement of mountains and islands has been occurring
all along; just not as noticeable as the shuffle depicted by Rev 16:14b.
Anyway, those events will quite naturally cause a world-wide panic.
● Rev 6:15-17 . . .Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the
rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and
among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the
rocks: Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne
and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come,
and who can stand?
_
yaas, There be 10, 000 interpreters of the Apocalypse and no 2 of them agree ... these are the scriptures the pre tribbers use the most. The open scriptures need no commentary ..... "after the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory"
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I wouldn't go that far. But they also opened a hotline which you could subscribe to for just 14 dollars for if you found all your friends had disappeared suddenly you could phone to get instructions and help having missed the Rap. Based upon Hal Lindsey's book.
Down through the centuries the church interpreted 2 Thess.2 one way. Then along came John Nelson Darby and juggled 2 or 3 words around and hey presto! we have a pretribulation rapture.
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a yeah my opinion is the scriptures bear it all out to be exactly as Jesus preached it and enduring and keeping faith through tribulation is part of the process of redemption it’s part of our calling to suffer to some extent In This world
Some bullet points were told by Jesus and the apostles as believers we will endure tribulation and persecution in this world but to keep believing through whatever comes because we’re living for the next place not this world
“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
John 16:33
“For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.”
1 Thessalonians 3:4 KJV
“And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”
Acts 14:21-23 KJV
awe can let tribulation and trial and persecution kill our faith or we can man up through it and hold on to our faith
“yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.”
Matthew 13:21
Tribulation in this world is something scripture says believers will have to face but we can stand up in it and this serves a purpose for us
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;”
Romans 5:3 KJV
were often taught in scriptire how to endure and deal with tribulation hardship sorrows and loss
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.”
Romans 12:10-14
dont lose Hope when things get really bad he told us ahead of time out this world
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.”
2 Corinthians 1:3-5 KJV
It’s something the apostles embraced and accepted and we’re enduring while the Bible’s New Testament was being written by the men enduring it because Jesus told them ahead of time it was coming
“I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 1:9
that’s the issue the world treated Jesus a certain way because of his message and his disciples are meant to be filled with his message
“If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep your's also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.”
John 15:18-21 KJV
At he apostles expected and knew tribulation was going to come so th ey kept faith they didn’t lose faith when it came believing hey we’re going to be delivered from ever going through it
It’s part of how we’re saved from the world into the kingdom of God not of this wicked world that hates Christianity
Some bullet points were told by Jesus and the apostles as believers we will endure tribulation and persecution in this world but to keep believing through whatever comes because we’re living for the next place not this world
“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
John 16:33
“For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.”
1 Thessalonians 3:4 KJV
“And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”
Acts 14:21-23 KJV
awe can let tribulation and trial and persecution kill our faith or we can man up through it and hold on to our faith
“yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.”
Matthew 13:21
Tribulation in this world is something scripture says believers will have to face but we can stand up in it and this serves a purpose for us
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;”
Romans 5:3 KJV
were often taught in scriptire how to endure and deal with tribulation hardship sorrows and loss
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.”
Romans 12:10-14
dont lose Hope when things get really bad he told us ahead of time out this world
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.”
2 Corinthians 1:3-5 KJV
It’s something the apostles embraced and accepted and we’re enduring while the Bible’s New Testament was being written by the men enduring it because Jesus told them ahead of time it was coming
“I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 1:9
that’s the issue the world treated Jesus a certain way because of his message and his disciples are meant to be filled with his message
“If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep your's also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.”
John 15:18-21 KJV
At he apostles expected and knew tribulation was going to come so th ey kept faith they didn’t lose faith when it came believing hey we’re going to be delivered from ever going through it
It’s part of how we’re saved from the world into the kingdom of God not of this wicked world that hates Christianity
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I wouldn't go that far. But they also opened a hotline which you could subscribe to for just 14 dollars for if you found all your friends had disappeared suddenly you could phone to get instructions and help having missed the Rap. Based upon Hal Lindsey's book.
Down through the centuries the church interpreted 2 Thess.2 one way. Then along came John Nelson Darby and juggled 2 or 3 words around and hey presto! we have a pretribulation rapture.
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Are you serious? "We [Christians] should be looking for the Antichrist"?
Well the truth of the matter is that the Antichrist cannot take total and absolute control of the inhabitants of the world until and unless (a) the Church and (b) the Holy Spirit (the divine Restrainer) are "taken out of the way". So what would that mean? It would simply means that both the Spirit and the Bride will be in Heaven when Satan and the Antichrist taken control of the earth for 42 months (3 1/2 years). You will notice that the words "church" or "churches" are absent from Revelation chapters 4 through 18 (which include the reign of the Antichrist). That is direct proof that the Church (the Body of Christ) is in Heaven at that time.
Well the truth of the matter is that the Antichrist cannot take total and absolute control of the inhabitants of the world until and unless (a) the Church and (b) the Holy Spirit (the divine Restrainer) are "taken out of the way". So what would that mean? It would simply means that both the Spirit and the Bride will be in Heaven when Satan and the Antichrist taken control of the earth for 42 months (3 1/2 years). You will notice that the words "church" or "churches" are absent from Revelation chapters 4 through 18 (which include the reign of the Antichrist). That is direct proof that the Church (the Body of Christ) is in Heaven at that time.
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Let us examine this often repeated pillar of pretribulational logic.
• The word church being absent from Rev chapters 4 through 18 is proof that the church is in heaven.
The fact is that in those chapters John describes his visions in heaven and on earth. In those visions-
The word church is absent on earth.
The word church is absent in heaven
There is no support for pretribulationism in this line of reasoning. If we used the "church is not mentioned" appeal consitently,
we would be obligated to conclude that the church has disappeared entirely.
• The word church being absent from Rev chapters 4 through 18 is proof that the church is in heaven.
The fact is that in those chapters John describes his visions in heaven and on earth. In those visions-
The word church is absent on earth.
The word church is absent in heaven
There is no support for pretribulationism in this line of reasoning. If we used the "church is not mentioned" appeal consitently,
we would be obligated to conclude that the church has disappeared entirely.
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Yes this is what pretribbers are taught.
But it is not what the scripture says
The scripture says antichrist will be slain by the Lord by the breath of His nostrils and the brightness of His appearing. So the coming of the Lord is the END of antichrist not the beginning ... he will have reigned and made a job of destroying everything god or worshipped as god [that's YOU] that is the great tribulation.
And he will march into the temple and take his seat and declare that he is God.
It's as plain as day in scripture.
When he declares himself God the Lord shall descend from Heaven with a shout.
But it is not what the scripture says
The scripture says antichrist will be slain by the Lord by the breath of His nostrils and the brightness of His appearing. So the coming of the Lord is the END of antichrist not the beginning ... he will have reigned and made a job of destroying everything god or worshipped as god [that's YOU] that is the great tribulation.
And he will march into the temple and take his seat and declare that he is God.
It's as plain as day in scripture.
When he declares himself God the Lord shall descend from Heaven with a shout.
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They ARE mentioned as being in heaven, they are the great multitude which no man could number dressed in white and carrying palms, they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb ... these are not raptured, these are martyrs.
Just before John saw them he saw the souls under the altar who had been beheaded for their testimony crying for justice, but the Lord said wait a little while until your brethren who were to be killed as they were killed and they were given white garments.
When John saw that multitude which no man could number he asked who they were.
"these are they who have come out of GREAT TRIBULATION ....
....they have washed their robes and made the white in the blood of the Lamb."
Martyrs, martyrdom THAT'S what the church should be preparing for. If there were any wise in places of leadership they would be preaching that the church must go underground NOW.
Christians will be stumbled and fall away and be offended when it comes because they had been taught they would escape, the Lord will come and rescue them with this pretribulation doctrine.
THAT'S WHY I fight against it.
Just before John saw them he saw the souls under the altar who had been beheaded for their testimony crying for justice, but the Lord said wait a little while until your brethren who were to be killed as they were killed and they were given white garments.
When John saw that multitude which no man could number he asked who they were.
"these are they who have come out of GREAT TRIBULATION ....
....they have washed their robes and made the white in the blood of the Lamb."
Martyrs, martyrdom THAT'S what the church should be preparing for. If there were any wise in places of leadership they would be preaching that the church must go underground NOW.
Christians will be stumbled and fall away and be offended when it comes because they had been taught they would escape, the Lord will come and rescue them with this pretribulation doctrine.
THAT'S WHY I fight against it.
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