The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the covenant with Israel was - do all that God commanded and then the land is yours which was part of the old covenant God made with Israel. The old covenant is done, Israel is under the new covenant now. So there is no more do and get. Am I wrong on this?
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In the new covenant, there's a definition for a Jew:
Rom 2:28A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Which basically means Israel=Church in the new covenant.
I personally believe Israel in OT was itself a prophesy, what they went through and how they rejected God is basically what the so called believers today are doing, only a few will make it.
Rom 2:28A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Which basically means Israel=Church in the new covenant.
I personally believe Israel in OT was itself a prophesy, what they went through and how they rejected God is basically what the so called believers today are doing, only a few will make it.
Agreed, the promises made to Abraham were to Abraham and his seed - Christ. We, saved Israel and saved Gentiles are the heirs of the promises through Christ.
This is why I don't understand "replacement theology", those of faith have always been the heirs to the promises. Flesh descendants of Israel have never been promised anything unless they did ALL that God commanded them. And again, that was under the old covenant that doesn't exist anymore. So the only way Israel gets anything is if they come to Christ.
This is why I don't understand "replacement theology", those of faith have always been the heirs to the promises. Flesh descendants of Israel have never been promised anything unless they did ALL that God commanded them. And again, that was under the old covenant that doesn't exist anymore. So the only way Israel gets anything is if they come to Christ.
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Israel had it's purpose but God clearly says in Amos 8:2 that he is done with them. If not then what is Amos 8:2 talking about?
Amo_8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
Amo_8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
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Is it a wonder when Jesus calls members of the church, real Jews?
Rev 2:
8“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:
7“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
To me, the word Jews here is used to mean a believer.
Rev 2:
8“To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:
7“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
To me, the word Jews here is used to mean a believer.
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I agree. I've found that there are two of almost everything in the bible, the earthly version and the heavenly or spiritual version... Jew and Israel being only one example of many many terms with dual meanings. I think that's what the bible means by rightly dividing the word of truth - earthly or heavenly.
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SMH 
I know what the word means...
Please stop "playing your tape" and tell me what it very specifically means to you.
It is commonly defined with the phrase 'falling away' (2 Thessalonians 2).
What I am asking you to be very specific about is -- what exactly-and-precisely do you believe the nature of this 'falling away' is and from what is the 'falling away'?
I know what the word means...
Please stop "playing your tape" and tell me what it very specifically means to you.
It is commonly defined with the phrase 'falling away' (2 Thessalonians 2).
What I am asking you to be very specific about is -- what exactly-and-precisely do you believe the nature of this 'falling away' is and from what is the 'falling away'?
As I make stated in my last post, the only other place that the word apostasia is used is in Acts 21:21, which is a falling away (defection, abandonment, apostasy, revolt, rebel, leave, depart) from the law of Moses. Here in 2 Thess.2:3 it is a falling away from faith in Christ. I believe that this apostasy has been in the process of taking place and will be complete after the church has been removed.
This country which was founded on Christian principles is now, along with the rest of the world, abandoning this faith and embracing the sinful nature and have their eyes fixed on this world, instead of fixing their eyes on Jesus and heavenly things such as the blessed hope, the Lord's appearing to gather His church. Scripture also states that in the last days people will be lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, which is definitely what has and is taking place.
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Amos 8:2 (part of) has the same phrase found in Amos 7:8 "I will not spare [/pass by]…"
As I see it, Amos 8:2 should be read with vv.7-15 also in mind;
and then also (in mind), considering what is being said in:
--Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 (regarding Israel [this is key, along with considering the above-mentioned vv.7-15 (re: Israel's "future"]); and
--Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b (regarding the Gentiles)
[not distinguishing these, leads to all sorts of skewed ideas, as I see it]
...and we DO see Lk21:24b saying (of Israel), "and shall be led away captive into all the nations" [comp.Lk21:23,20,24 with Matt22:7, and then note that v.8 is speaking of "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which necessarily took place AFTER the 70ad events of v.7! (see Rev1:1/7:3--in "[The] Revelation's" LATER 95ad writings)]
Regarding Amos 8:9, which says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:," one author/commentator says, "The verse, while it has a certain application to that generation [in Amos's day], whose glory should end like the sun going down at noon, has its final meaning in the coming day of the Lord, which all the prophets announced. It is the same our Lord predicts in Matthew 24:29-30. For Israel the bitter day of mounting, lamentation and woe would come." --Gaebelein [underline and bracketed insert mine]
As I see it, Amos 8:2 should be read with vv.7-15 also in mind;
and then also (in mind), considering what is being said in:
--Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 (regarding Israel [this is key, along with considering the above-mentioned vv.7-15 (re: Israel's "future"]); and
--Romans 9:25/Hosea 2:23b (regarding the Gentiles)
[not distinguishing these, leads to all sorts of skewed ideas, as I see it]
...and we DO see Lk21:24b saying (of Israel), "and shall be led away captive into all the nations" [comp.Lk21:23,20,24 with Matt22:7, and then note that v.8 is speaking of "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" which necessarily took place AFTER the 70ad events of v.7! (see Rev1:1/7:3--in "[The] Revelation's" LATER 95ad writings)]
Regarding Amos 8:9, which says, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:," one author/commentator says, "The verse, while it has a certain application to that generation [in Amos's day], whose glory should end like the sun going down at noon, has its final meaning in the coming day of the Lord, which all the prophets announced. It is the same our Lord predicts in Matthew 24:29-30. For Israel the bitter day of mounting, lamentation and woe would come." --Gaebelein [underline and bracketed insert mine]
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