the standard of righteousness
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This is a bit insulting, that my motive is purely "to win." I do get what Paul said about letting some individual practices go. But Paul never said it was alright to teach Legalism in the church, including such things as "Christians must observe the Sabbath," or "Christians must get circumcised," or "Christians must not eat meat offered to idols." They are allowed to indulge in "individual practices," but not to teach it as a rule to the church. Or, am I wrong?
You made a big deal out of my reading Romans 14. Where in Rom 14 does Paul say it is okay to actually teach the Church that Sabbath keeping is mandatory? You won't find it. And so, your reference to Rom 14 is not relevant to the subject, except as a matter of individual preference.
Rom 14.19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification... 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
Paul was adamantly against any form of Legalism being taught in the church, including circumcision or sabbath keeping. As far as personal devotion, what a person did privately is his business.
If someone comes on this Christian forum, or on any forum, declaring that Christians should keep the Sabbath, that person needs to be publicly opposed. It is legalism. If he personally believes that God wants Christians to worship on Saturday, then that is between him and God.
7th Day Adventists have that freedom, to consider that God finds Saturday especially appealing for worship, and in fact prefers it. But 7th Day Adventists should keep their doctrine to themselves, and must face the charge that they are sectarian Christians, not in unity with the rest of the Church on the matter of "salvation by grace."
In Paul's day, the Church was young and full of former Jews in Judaism, who thought that the Sabbath law still ruled. Since Paul wished to keep his witness active among the Jewish people, he did not wish to make a big issue, either among Jews or among Messianic Jews, regarding the Sabbath. But he never ever indicated it was okay to teach the Sabbath keeping is mandatory, as if Christians are still under the Law!
Catholic doctrine of "works" is different than this, and has to do more with the freedom of the will. Luther taught that the human will required the help of the Holy Spirit to please God. That is certainly true with respect to Salvation, but not to good works in general. The unbeliever may do good works, but that does not automatically get him Salvation. But when we choose Christ as our life, the works we do through him please God as part of our Salvation experience--our works follow us into eternity.
But the works of Legalism are something different, and represent the unsaved person or even the saved person trying to do works apart from Christ to achieve works that achieve some sort of justification. Christ alone is our justification, and to be justified all our works need to be done in him! Sabbath keeping is a work apart from Christ, except that worship on *any day* is an acceptable work in the eyes of God. And that's because true worship is done through Christ, and has nothing to do with it being on a Sabbath.
You made a big deal out of my reading Romans 14. Where in Rom 14 does Paul say it is okay to actually teach the Church that Sabbath keeping is mandatory? You won't find it. And so, your reference to Rom 14 is not relevant to the subject, except as a matter of individual preference.
Rom 14.19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification... 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.
Paul was adamantly against any form of Legalism being taught in the church, including circumcision or sabbath keeping. As far as personal devotion, what a person did privately is his business.
If someone comes on this Christian forum, or on any forum, declaring that Christians should keep the Sabbath, that person needs to be publicly opposed. It is legalism. If he personally believes that God wants Christians to worship on Saturday, then that is between him and God.
7th Day Adventists have that freedom, to consider that God finds Saturday especially appealing for worship, and in fact prefers it. But 7th Day Adventists should keep their doctrine to themselves, and must face the charge that they are sectarian Christians, not in unity with the rest of the Church on the matter of "salvation by grace."
In Paul's day, the Church was young and full of former Jews in Judaism, who thought that the Sabbath law still ruled. Since Paul wished to keep his witness active among the Jewish people, he did not wish to make a big issue, either among Jews or among Messianic Jews, regarding the Sabbath. But he never ever indicated it was okay to teach the Sabbath keeping is mandatory, as if Christians are still under the Law!
Catholic doctrine of "works" is different than this, and has to do more with the freedom of the will. Luther taught that the human will required the help of the Holy Spirit to please God. That is certainly true with respect to Salvation, but not to good works in general. The unbeliever may do good works, but that does not automatically get him Salvation. But when we choose Christ as our life, the works we do through him please God as part of our Salvation experience--our works follow us into eternity.
But the works of Legalism are something different, and represent the unsaved person or even the saved person trying to do works apart from Christ to achieve works that achieve some sort of justification. Christ alone is our justification, and to be justified all our works need to be done in him! Sabbath keeping is a work apart from Christ, except that worship on *any day* is an acceptable work in the eyes of God. And that's because true worship is done through Christ, and has nothing to do with it being on a Sabbath.
there are only twelve Jesus chose himself is my point Peter casting lots before the Holy Spirit was given isn’t how an apostle is chosen these are the twelve names of the apostles that are written on the kingdom in heaven
and these are the only 12 chosen by the risen and glorified Christ himself in person that’s the requirement that you see Jesus face to face , and are given the appointment of an apostle there’s only 12 names here
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:
so it’s this for israel 12 names of the ot
“And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.”
Exodus 28:21 KJV
And these for the nt
“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”
Matthew 10:2-4 KJV
Judas was fore ordained to fulfill prophecy
“Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.”
Matthew 26:14-16 KJV
“And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.”
Zechariah 11:12-14 KJV
“Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;”
Matthew 27:9 KJV
there’s only one other man Jesus chose to replace Judas in person like he chose the twelve it’s Paul receiving the same commission as the other eleven remaining apostles
“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Acts 26:15-18 KJV
There are 12 cchosen witnesses by the risen lord Matthias is not one chosen this way but by casting lots before the spirit had come
the other eleven received thier commission here
“And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
Luke 24:33, 46-49
I’m assuming I suppose to at there are twelve apostles of the lamb but can be many “ apostles “ “ messengers “
I’m specifically talking about the kingdom of heaven there are only 12 apostles of the lamb the twelve minus Judas but plus Paul
but bro it’s only what I personally believe no one else needs to think the same , just a discussion and I’m trying to share my thinking why I think that
there are twelve wternal
Names founding the wall of the city the 12 apostles of Jesus , and there are only 12 chosen by him in person as his apostles is all my point is but again that’s just how my mind sees it doesn’t mean I’m right , just means there is scriptural basis for what I think as is there for others views
and these are the only 12 chosen by the risen and glorified Christ himself in person that’s the requirement that you see Jesus face to face , and are given the appointment of an apostle there’s only 12 names here
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:
so it’s this for israel 12 names of the ot
“And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.”
Exodus 28:21 KJV
And these for the nt
“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”
Matthew 10:2-4 KJV
Judas was fore ordained to fulfill prophecy
“Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.”
Matthew 26:14-16 KJV
“And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.”
Zechariah 11:12-14 KJV
“Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;”
Matthew 27:9 KJV
there’s only one other man Jesus chose to replace Judas in person like he chose the twelve it’s Paul receiving the same commission as the other eleven remaining apostles
“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Acts 26:15-18 KJV
There are 12 cchosen witnesses by the risen lord Matthias is not one chosen this way but by casting lots before the spirit had come
the other eleven received thier commission here
“And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
Luke 24:33, 46-49
I’m assuming I suppose to at there are twelve apostles of the lamb but can be many “ apostles “ “ messengers “
I’m specifically talking about the kingdom of heaven there are only 12 apostles of the lamb the twelve minus Judas but plus Paul
but bro it’s only what I personally believe no one else needs to think the same , just a discussion and I’m trying to share my thinking why I think that
there are twelve wternal
Names founding the wall of the city the 12 apostles of Jesus , and there are only 12 chosen by him in person as his apostles is all my point is but again that’s just how my mind sees it doesn’t mean I’m right , just means there is scriptural basis for what I think as is there for others views
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”…
till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19 KJV
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
Galatians 3:16 KJV
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15 KJV
“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
Romans 3:21-22 KJV
Gods righteousness comes in here
“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
Matthew 6:33 KJV
And remember where it began
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.”
Acts 13:39-41 KJV
“For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
John 1:17 KJV
“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
Isaiah 51:4-5 KJV
till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19 KJV
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
Galatians 3:16 KJV
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15 KJV
“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
Romans 3:21-22 KJV
Gods righteousness comes in here
“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
Matthew 6:33 KJV
And remember where it began
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.”
Acts 13:39-41 KJV
“For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
John 1:17 KJV
“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
Isaiah 51:4-5 KJV
The other brother is correct--there are more than 12 or 13 apostles, called and chosen by God. The 12 apostles had a specific calling as apostles in connection with Israel, although like the rest, they were also sent out into other nations. Their jobs were to start in Israel. Paul's job did not start in Israel, although he did start with the Jews first, in other countries.
The names of the 12 apostles are written on the New Jerusalem not because they are the only apostles, but because they were apostles called to represent the testimony of Jesus to the 12 tribes, otherwise known as the Jewish People. By that time, all 12 tribes had coalesced and amalgamated into a single ethnicity, the Jewish People.
But all 12 represented the fact that inherent in the Jewish People were the descendants of all 12 tribes, thus fulfilling the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The promise made to Jacob obviously included his 12 sons, which became the 12 tribes. And all 12 tribes were given a place, under the Law, in the inheritance of faith.
But clearly, there were other apostles, whose job it was to testify to the fundamental truths of the Gospel, establishing churches everywhere, in other nations. The fact that all 12 tribes were represented in the New Jerusalem, by the12 apostles called 1st to Israel, indicates the model of God's faithfulness to the original, prototypical nation, Israel. If so, then all other nations can have hope too.
The names of the 12 apostles are written on the New Jerusalem not because they are the only apostles, but because they were apostles called to represent the testimony of Jesus to the 12 tribes, otherwise known as the Jewish People. By that time, all 12 tribes had coalesced and amalgamated into a single ethnicity, the Jewish People.
But all 12 represented the fact that inherent in the Jewish People were the descendants of all 12 tribes, thus fulfilling the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The promise made to Jacob obviously included his 12 sons, which became the 12 tribes. And all 12 tribes were given a place, under the Law, in the inheritance of faith.
But clearly, there were other apostles, whose job it was to testify to the fundamental truths of the Gospel, establishing churches everywhere, in other nations. The fact that all 12 tribes were represented in the New Jerusalem, by the12 apostles called 1st to Israel, indicates the model of God's faithfulness to the original, prototypical nation, Israel. If so, then all other nations can have hope too.
Did you read my post regarding the importance of 12 men as witnesses? It really is elementary.
Also, the body of Christ is in heaven and on the earth today. Commissioned by revelation and the laying on of hands IS a commission from the Lord personally. This is the body of Christ in the earth.
“For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
The “coming in the flesh” is the flesh of men not just the single person of Jesus: believers, corporately, carry the Spirit of the Lord in themselves as the body of Christ. To say otherwise, to limit the authenticity of the work of the Lord to His 3 year terrestrial ministry, is antichrist. It denigrates Him to a philosopher and in nullifies the reality of His body in the earth.
Paul was commissioned and released as an apostle (as was Barnabas) after fasting and prayer and the laying on of hands by the saints. Without this, his encounter with the Lord is of no consequence. If Paul had not prepared to be an apostle the Lord would have never directed them to released him.
The laying on of hands in an elementary principle.
Also, the body of Christ is in heaven and on the earth today. Commissioned by revelation and the laying on of hands IS a commission from the Lord personally. This is the body of Christ in the earth.
“For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
The “coming in the flesh” is the flesh of men not just the single person of Jesus: believers, corporately, carry the Spirit of the Lord in themselves as the body of Christ. To say otherwise, to limit the authenticity of the work of the Lord to His 3 year terrestrial ministry, is antichrist. It denigrates Him to a philosopher and in nullifies the reality of His body in the earth.
Paul was commissioned and released as an apostle (as was Barnabas) after fasting and prayer and the laying on of hands by the saints. Without this, his encounter with the Lord is of no consequence. If Paul had not prepared to be an apostle the Lord would have never directed them to released him.
The laying on of hands in an elementary principle.
In post #44, you said:
The names, New and Old Testaments, are ascribed by men. The Teachings of Jesus Yeshua begin in Genniesis and are over at the final amen of Revelation.
Am I misreading this? It sounds as if you're saying that unless Jesus writes the Scriptures, the Scriptures are purely "human?" I'll appreciate the clarification. Sorry if I misinterpreted!
The names, New and Old Testaments, are ascribed by men. The Teachings of Jesus Yeshua begin in Genniesis and are over at the final amen of Revelation.
Am I misreading this? It sounds as if you're saying that unless Jesus writes the Scriptures, the Scriptures are purely "human?" I'll appreciate the clarification. Sorry if I misinterpreted!
I'll have to assume you got caught in the dark. The light is shining on you, and you don't have an answer "for everyone who asks, a reason for the hope that lies within you."
You prefer to let others think you're disparaging the Scriptures simply because they weren't written by "the Word?" If you were noble, you would easily have answered this.
I have no animosity. But it's your choice. Leave things in the dark, or come clean.
You prefer to let others think you're disparaging the Scriptures simply because they weren't written by "the Word?" If you were noble, you would easily have answered this.
I have no animosity. But it's your choice. Leave things in the dark, or come clean.
I sincerely wanted to know what Jaumelj meant. If I understood him wrong, I'm willing to be corrected.
If he doesn't have an answer, what am I to conclude? If he wants to judge my motives, that's his problem--not mine.
I'm here to share, and to ask questions. If he doesn't like the questions, I suppose he doesn't have to answer them. But it may bewilder anybody who reads the questions that someone doesn't want to make clear.
Accusing someone of having bad motives can be used as a ruse. I'm here to inform the brother that I don't have any ill-intensions. But if he doesn't want to accept that, again, the record speaks for itself.
If he doesn't have an answer, what am I to conclude? If he wants to judge my motives, that's his problem--not mine.
I'm here to share, and to ask questions. If he doesn't like the questions, I suppose he doesn't have to answer them. But it may bewilder anybody who reads the questions that someone doesn't want to make clear.
Accusing someone of having bad motives can be used as a ruse. I'm here to inform the brother that I don't have any ill-intensions. But if he doesn't want to accept that, again, the record speaks for itself.