The sermon on the mount - Old or New covenant?

[BillG]

Beautiful Billy.

It's hard sometimes to get our heads wrapped around the fact that the Jews had created their own religion for centuries. They had killed the Prophets God sent to expose this to them, and when He sent His Son, they killed Him as well.

It was their Law that burdened the people as you so correctly stated. It was their Law that condemned Jesus. It was their Law that restricted Gentiles access to the God of Abraham.

They said "We have a Law, and by OUR LAW he should die", so they killed Him.

But He didn't stay dead did He. No my friend, God rose Him from the dead because He never did anything worthy of death, contrary to the Pharisee's Law.

You get this it seems, since you seem to get this truth, couple this truth with Col. 2.

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

It was the Law the Jews created, that they had been preaching for centuries, which was against the Gentiles, not the Laws of God.

Jesus "spoiled" the principalities and powers of that time. Did He "Spoil" God? Did He make a show of God openly, or "THEM" who condemned Him to death in the first place.

Did Jesus "Triumph" over God when He rose from the dead? Or did He Triumph over "THEM" who killed Him in the first place.


The answer to these last questions are the main difference between our beliefs Billy. I know Jesus didn't nail His Laws to the Cross. He nailed the "Rudiments of the World", "the traditions of men", the "vain deceit" that had been taught, as Law, by the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet for centuries. Those where the handwriting of ordinances that were against Jesus and the Gentiles, and Paul. Not the "Good", "Just", "Holy" Laws of God.

Can you see? I truly hope you can. (I have goose bumps )

To be honest Studyman I honestly do not think we are far apart.

Trust me I have fallen foul myself of law makers in the church.
And I hate it with a passion.

I am a man who was told because I don't speak in tongues then I'm not saved.


I'm a man who was told that God ripped my cruciate ligaments apart and ended my prospect professional football career cause I played football on a Sunday morning, even though I went to the evening service. Yet the person who said this to me never went to an evening service. And today I suffer with Arthritis in both knees.

I am fully aware of the burdens that The Pharisees placed on the children of God and Jesus said

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

This is the Jesus I love

Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I will always seek Jesus and his ways.

He is the truth and it's his truth that sets us free.

 

[Mem]

If my response seems disembodied from the thread it is because I my intent is only to offer answer only to the OP, here.

Are the teachings on the mount part of the Old Covenant or of the New Covenant? Or is it mixed?

If they are part of the Old Covenant, how could Jesus teach what is the opposite to what was written in it? (See A.)

This teaching is not opposite as much as it is transcendent, and the OT part is still present in that the enemy is to be regarded as your neighbor. It's not actually an opposite regard as it is exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisee in that perfect love casts out fear whereas a regard of fear is otherwise normally matched.

If they are part of the New Covenant, why do we need to forgive others to be forgiven by God? (See B.)

Again, the New transcends the Old in that Moses offered that which we should do but that we would not though we could (note* the conjugations of "shall" and "will" there purposefully) but Jesus offered that which would not have been able to do (as in if we would we could) for that which we shall...

If it is mixed, how to know what is belonging to which covenant?

Jesus 'completed' the Old by the completion of the New, so that, if we do happen to leave the one undone it IS finished in Him and we are then (en)abled to (can) continue forward and intrinsically in the way, upward.
-----

A. "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love your enemies..."
Mt 5:43

B. "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Mt 6:15

 

[Studyman]

To be honest Studyman I honestly do not think we are far apart.

Trust me I have fallen foul myself of law makers in the church.
And I hate it with a passion.

I am a man who was told because I don't speak in tongues then I'm not saved.


I'm a man who was told that God ripped my cruciate ligaments apart and ended my prospect professional football career cause I played football on a Sunday morning, even though I went to the evening service. Yet the person who said this to me never went to an evening service. And today I suffer with Arthritis in both knees.

I am fully aware of the burdens that The Pharisees placed on the children of God and Jesus said

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

This is the Jesus I love

Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I will always seek Jesus and his ways.

He is the truth and it's his truth that sets us free.

I think you really missed the point of my reply.

You speak about the "Truth" and I agree.

What we have been told by "MANY" who come in Christ's name on this forum and around the world is that Jesus nailed His Fathers Commandments to the cross in Col. 2. It is there "Go To" scripture to prove Jesus actually abolished His Fathers Commandments.

Yet The Bible has just exposed beyond any doubt, that this teaching is a lie as you must certainly have "SEEN" in my post. That Jesus didn't nail His Fathers Laws to the Cross. This teaching is a false doctrine. It is part of the foundation of the serpent to trick men into dishonoring God, disrespecting God as it tricked Eve into doing. This lie is the basis for most Mainstream Christian preaching regarding God's Word.

If Jesus is the Truth, then which Jesus? The one man created that nailed God's Commandments to the Cross? Or the one who made a show of the deceivers of His time openly, triumphing over "THEM" in it.

You are aware of the burden the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, that transgressed the Commandments of God by their own traditions, placed on the people.

Are you aware of the burden the Mainstream Preachers of our time, that transgress the Commandments of God by their man made traditions, have placed on the people?

Does the "Truth" about Col. 2 matter?

 

[Embankment]

I think you really missed the point of my reply.

You speak about the "Truth" and I agree.

What we have been told by "MANY" who come in Christ's name on this forum and around the world is that Jesus nailed His Fathers Commandments to the cross in Col. 2. It is there "Go To" scripture to prove Jesus actually abolished His Fathers Commandments.

Yet The Bible has just exposed beyond any doubt, that this teaching is a lie as you must certainly have "SEEN" in my post. That Jesus didn't nail His Fathers Laws to the Cross. This teaching is a false doctrine. It is part of the foundation of the serpent to trick men into dishonoring God, disrespecting God as it tricked Eve into doing. This lie is the basis for most Mainstream Christian preaching regarding God's Word.

If Jesus is the Truth, then which Jesus? The one man created that nailed God's Commandments to the Cross? Or the one who made a show of the deceivers of His time openly, triumphing over "THEM" in it.

You are aware of the burden the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, that transgressed the Commandments of God by their own traditions, placed on the people.

Are you aware of the burden the Mainstream Preachers of our time, that transgress the Commandments of God by their man made traditions, have placed on the people?

Does the "Truth" about Col. 2 matter?

The Old Testament commandments are replaced by New covenant established by Jesus. It's not just one scripture but the entire New Testament! The Bible really only reads one way.

 

[MattforJesus]

The 2 greatest commandments love God,and love people,and all the all the law and prophets hang on those 2 laws.

Jesus nailed the physical ordinances of Israel to His cross,taking them out of the way,for they were contrary to us,for they had no benefit for spiritual salvation,and broke down the middle wall of partition between the Jews and Gentiles,making them one man,which creation testifies that there is a God that loves people for He provided food,and the means to make clothing,and shelter,so they are without excuse,which for all the Gentiles that knew not the word of God that is how they will be judged,but Jew and Gentile is one new man going by the 2 greatest laws,love God,and love people.

Let no man tell you to keep the physical ordinances of Israel,including the sabbath days,for they have no bearing on spiritual salvation.

For with stammering lips,and another tongue shall He speak to these people,saying,this is the rest wherewith you may cause the weary to rest,and this is the refreshing,yet they would not hear.

The Holy Spirit is our rest,sabbath,in the New Testament,and we celebrate the creation of the New Jerusalem,the place Jesus prepared for the saints,for we are strangers passing through the land seeking a better place.

Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,holy,just,and good,the laws of love,moral laws.

If a person hates sin,and does not want sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,which they can establish the law,and not under the law,which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

We do not go by the physical ordinances of Israel,but the laws of love,and moral laws,which would include the 10 commandments for they are laws of love towards God,and people,but the sabbath is by the Spirit,for in the New Testament it is spiritual.

 

[Studyman]

The Old Testament commandments are replaced by New covenant established by Jesus. It's not just one scripture but the entire New Testament! The Bible really only reads one way.

I agree that the Bible only reads one way. Can you show me where the creator of the New covenant ever mentions anything other than the Priesthood being changed? Where does the Bible say the New Covenant replaces the Old Testament?

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How the Law is administered.

How sins are forgiven.

Where do you get that God's re-defined sin or altered God's Laws that He writes on our heart?

 

[Studyman]

=MattforJesus;3402925]

The 2 greatest commandments love God,and love people,and all the all the law and prophets hang on those 2 laws.

Jesus nailed the physical ordinances of Israel to His cross,taking them out of the way,for they were contrary to us,

Jesus didn't destroy God's Instructions on His Cross. The Mainstream Preachers had killed the Prophets God sent to expose this to them, and when He sent His Son, they killed Him as well.

It was their Law that burdened the people, not God's as you preach. It was their Law that condemned Jesus. It was their Law that restricted Gentiles access to the God of Abraham.

They said "We have a Law, and by OUR LAW he should die", so they killed Him.

But He didn't stay dead did He. No, God rose Him from the dead because He never did anything worthy of death, contrary to the Pharisee's Law.

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

It was the Law the Jews created, that they had been preaching for centuries, which was against the Gentiles, not the Laws of God.

Jesus "spoiled" the principalities and powers of that time. Did He "Spoil" God? Did He make a show of God openly, or "THEM" who condemned Him to death in the first place.

Did Jesus "Triumph" over God when He rose from the dead? Or did He Triumph over "THEM" who killed Him in the first place.

God's Instructions are not against us, man's traditions and "Rudiments of the World" are against us.

It is false to preach Jesus triumphed over God on the Cross. We have been taught this from our youth, but as Jesus warned would happen, it is a deception from the "MANY" who come in Christ's name. If you have been tricked into believing a lie about Col. 2, then what else have you been tricked into believing?

 

[Embankment]

I agree that the Bible only reads one way. Can you show me where the creator of the New covenant ever mentions anything other than the Priesthood being changed? Where does the Bible say the New Covenant replaces the Old Testament?

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How the Law is administered.

How sins are forgiven.

Where do you get that God's re-defined sin or altered God's Laws that He writes on our heart?

sin is not redefined. Many passages deal with the fact the Law has been replaced in our new covenant. All that needs to be done is read the NT in context and all is clear.

 

[Studyman]

sin is not redefined. Many passages deal with the fact the Law has been replaced in our new covenant. All that needs to be done is read the NT in context and all is clear.

Well it is not clear.

If it were, I'm sure you would give me the "Clear" scriptures that say the New Covenant replaced God's Laws. But you didn't because the Bible teaches no such thing, men teach this, God does not.

The New Covenant had to do with the change in the Priesthood, nothing more. I will gladly consider any scriptures you can find to the contrary.

 

[MarcR]

You are wrong. The strict Sabbath banned ALL work on the Sabbath. There was no exception. It was the later interpretation that allowed a man to help his sheep in difficulties on the Sabbath, (part of your so called mainstream churches



The strict Sabbath forbade ALL work. No exceptions. Mainstream religion allowed the exceptions. 'The Sabbath made for man' was a relaxation of the Sabbath, determined by the mainstream religion of the time



Actually the Law forbade any work on behalf of another. The relaxation came later.

You simply twist the Law to mean what you want.

'On the seventh day you shall do no manner of work.' Its plain enough.

Three Hebrew words are translated into English as work.

'On the seventh day you shall do no manner of work. The word used here is מְלָאכָ֖ה which means workfor personal gain or livelihood.

The word עֲבֹדָ֛ה also translated as work means service or ministry; and is NOT prohibited on Sabbath in Scripture but was prohibited by some first century rabbinic interpretation.

The word עִצְּב֣וֺן means toil under compulsion and is also not prohibited on Sabbath though requiring it of another person is prohibited.

 

[Embankment]

I agree that the Bible only reads one way. Can you show me where the creator of the New covenant ever mentions anything other than the Priesthood being changed? Where does the Bible say the New Covenant replaces the Old Testament?

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How the Law is administered.

How sins are forgiven.

Where do you get that God's re-defined sin or altered God's Laws that He writes on our heart?

I could post the entire chapter of Romans.

 

[Bladerunner]

As already shown, the New Covenant in the Lord's Supper included both Jews and Gentiles, and the Abrahamic Covenant had already included them. Paul brings this all of this out in his epistles. So the New Covenant does extend to the Church, since the New Birth is for all those who are in the Church. The Church has become the spiritual "seed of Abraham" through faith, thus the Church is also called "the Israel of God". This in no way validates Replacement Theology, but puts the Church under the New Covenant ratified with the blood of Christ.

No it does NOT!....Let me ask you a question?
When(time period) was the Lord's Supper in regards to Jesus Christ's Crucifixtion?
When (time period)was Paul's Ministry in regards to to Jesus Christ's Crucifixtion?.....
If the Church is to be Raptured then How Does the Covenant EFFECT THOSE PEOPLE?

While in Theory, I agree with you about the Abrahamic Seed to some extent, YET, when the Jewish people rejected their Messiah, God blinded them and turned to the Gentiles. When Jesus died on the Cross, was buried and Resurrected; a NEW age of Dispensation (The Church) began and Moses' Law ended.

The Bible tells us that Whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ will have everlasting Life. The Abrahamic Covenant and all the other covenant except the last one (the NEW Covenant), made Israel a Great Nation among nations, Gave them the Promised Land, returned them to it and WHAT? They, the nation of Israel are slatted to go through "Jacob's Troubles" Daniel's 70th week where 2/3 of their population will DIE and the other 1/3 will finally believe that Jesus Christ is their 'Mashiach Nagid'. They are the ones who will receive the 'New Covenant' and live in mortal Bodies through the Millennium.

The Church (the Body of Christ) that you speak of is in Heaven getting ready for the Brides Supper. How do we receive the 'New Covenant'. ????????

 

[Studyman]

I could post the entire chapter of Romans.

Romans. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Is obeying God good, or evil?


No, Paul doesn't preach the New Covenant destroyed the Old Testament Words.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You would have to pick and choose, then twist because Paul doesn't preach the Old Testament is gone. You would have to reject Romans 2 all together.

He preaches the "Law of Works", the Levitical Priesthood is changed, but he doesn't preach against the Old Testament as he, himself, declared.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

So Paul and Jeremiah are in agreement where the new covenant is concerned.

I will still consider scriptures to support your belief that Paul preaches the new Covenant replaced the Old Testament.