I think Marc i pointing out the differnce between yahshua/Jesus when He says
"you have heard"
as opposed to
"it is written"
The sermon on the mount - Old or New covenant?
- Thread starter trofimus
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I think Marc i pointing out the differnce between yahshua/Jesus when He says
"you have heard"
as opposed to
"it is written"
In each case Jesus cites the Pharisaic interpretation and contrasts it with God's view.
Rather than worrying about which covenant the Sermon on the Mount is about, why not try and live it?
"The Divine Conspiracy" by Dallas Willard goes through each line in great detail.
Bonhoeffer in "The Cost of Discipleship" also goes through the Sermon on the Mount. You could probably find that in German, if your German is better than your English.
I also have a copy of "Studies in the Sermon on the Mount" by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, which is supposed to be very solid.
"The Divine Conspiracy" by Dallas Willard goes through each line in great detail.
Bonhoeffer in "The Cost of Discipleship" also goes through the Sermon on the Mount. You could probably find that in German, if your German is better than your English.
I also have a copy of "Studies in the Sermon on the Mount" by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, which is supposed to be very solid.
I think that some teachings are part of the Old Covenant (the Lord is reinterpreting the Law of Moses) and others are universal eternal principles. Below are clues that some of them are part of the Old Covenant:
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
3Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cleansed of his leprosy. 4Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don’t tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.”
You don't have to go to the Levite to hear Moses since the Priesthood of the Old Covenant has been changed, now Jesus is our High Priest. He has made it so Moses is available to each of us where ever were are. In fact, you have the Laws of Moses written on your heart just like every one else on this forum. You must simply choose either to trust it, or create your own laws, Sabbaths, High Days as did the Mainstream preachers of His time.
The 'mainstream preachers' of the time were ALL Sabbath keepers and kept it literally. It was Jesus Who changed the Sabbath.
Interestingly He ignored it in the Sermon on the Mount.
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Jesus taught the old covenant. In both statements forgiveness is conditional & on conditions we for the most part cannot do.
I think you miss the point Jesus was making in Matt. 5.
Jesus just got through saying that the Law would be here as long as heaven and earth. Then he says.
Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Why would He say this? Because the Pharisees, the mainstream preachers of His time, were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of man, and not from God.
He went on to say:
Matt. 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But the Law and Prophets taught more than that.
Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Jesus was preaching against the teachers and doctrines of His time and before, that killed the Prophets. He isn't changing or preaching against His own Word's that He said before coming to earth as a man, or God's Commandments given to man through Moses.
Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The New Covenant had nothing to do with the definition of God's Laws, but rather the "Priesthood", or more precisely:
#1. How God's Commandments are administered. (No more Levite scribes to go to, to hear the Word's of God, Jesus writes them on our hearts.)
#2. the manner in which sins are forgiven. (No more Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins. Jesus, with His Own Blood, cleanses our sins)
Well, I know this is what "many" who come in Christ's name preaches. But it is not true just the same. It was never against God's Laws to help a brother in need on His Sabbath. But it was against the Sabbath Law the Mainstream Church of Christ's time created.
Jesus said they "taught for doctrines the Commandments of man". So even though "MANY" who come in Christ's name, preach they were keeping God's Sabbaths, we know from listening to Jesus that this preaching is not true. They had created their own Sabbath, and had rejected the Sabbath God made for man.
If you can provide Biblical evidence that God's Sabbath forbids a man to help a brother, or take a walk and eat a blackberry, I would be glad to consider it. But until then, I must trust the preaching of Jesus over the preaching of Mainstream religions.
The sermon on the mount was for two purposes.
Firstly it showed the utter impossibility of keeping the law.
Secondly it showed men what God required of them.
In the first case it drove men from the law to the One Who could save them.
In the second it was a guide as to how men should attain to live to please God.
You are wrong. The strict Sabbath banned ALL work on the Sabbath. There was no exception. It was the later interpretation that allowed a man to help his sheep in difficulties on the Sabbath, (part of your so called mainstream churches
The strict Sabbath forbade ALL work. No exceptions. Mainstream religion allowed the exceptions. 'The Sabbath made for man' was a relaxation of the Sabbath, determined by the mainstream religion of the time
Actually the Law forbade any work on behalf of another. The relaxation came later.
You simply twist the Law to mean what you want.
'On the seventh day you shall do no manner of work.' Its plain enough.
You are wrong. The strict Sabbath banned ALL work on the Sabbath. There was no exception. It was the later interpretation that allowed a man to help his sheep in difficulties on the Sabbath, (part of your so called mainstream churches
The strict Sabbath forbade ALL work. No exceptions. Mainstream religion allowed the exceptions. 'The Sabbath made for man' was a relaxation of the Sabbath, determined by the mainstream religion of the time
Actually the Law forbade any work on behalf of another. The relaxation came later.
You simply twist the Law to mean what you want.
'On the seventh day you shall do no manner of work.' Its plain enough.
I see, so Jesus was the one breaking God's Commandments, not the Pharisees. It is Jesus who lied to us when He said the Pharisees were NOT keeping God's commandments, they were actually following them.
So you preach that horrible God of the Bible created a Sabbath so egregious that it was not lawful to help a man who fell and got hurt until after the Sabbath was over.
And you have zero Biblical evidence to support your preaching that God is so unjust. You just "Believe" this to be true.
So then Jesus lied when He said it was Lawful to do Good on His Sabbath, God never intended it to be that way in the beginning.
This is why I stay away from organized man made religions. The things they make you believe.
Sorry I dying often do this but I'm gonna post a chapter
Matthew 12:1-14
Chapter 12
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”
3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Healing on the Sabbath
9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue.
10 And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—that they might accuse Him.
11 Then He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?
12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other.
14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.
Jesus healed on the Sabbath.
He knew the true intent of the Sabbath.
From my understanding the Pharisees added so much weight on the people.
They did everything to get around the Sabbath, not working and taught it.
Healing on the Sabbath is not a work. It's the love of God to heal, show mercy, love and compassion towards his children.
Matthew 12:1-14
Chapter 12
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”
3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him:
4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple.
7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Healing on the Sabbath
9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue.
10 And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—that they might accuse Him.
11 Then He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?
12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other.
14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.
Jesus healed on the Sabbath.
He knew the true intent of the Sabbath.
From my understanding the Pharisees added so much weight on the people.
They did everything to get around the Sabbath, not working and taught it.
Healing on the Sabbath is not a work. It's the love of God to heal, show mercy, love and compassion towards his children.
Beautiful Billy.
It's hard sometimes to get our heads wrapped around the fact that the Jews had created their own religion for centuries. They had killed the Prophets God sent to expose this to them, and when He sent His Son, they killed Him as well.
It was their Law that burdened the people as you so correctly stated. It was their Law that condemned Jesus. It was their Law that restricted Gentiles access to the God of Abraham.
They said "We have a Law, and by OUR LAW he should die", so they killed Him.
But He didn't stay dead did He. No my friend, God rose Him from the dead because He never did anything worthy of death, contrary to the Pharisee's Law.
You get this it seems, since you seem to get this truth, couple this truth with Col. 2.
Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
It was the Law the Jews created, that they had been preaching for centuries, which was against the Gentiles, not the Laws of God.
Jesus "spoiled" the principalities and powers of that time. Did He "Spoil" God? Did He make a show of God openly, or "THEM" who condemned Him to death in the first place.
Did Jesus "Triumph" over God when He rose from the dead? Or did He Triumph over "THEM" who killed Him in the first place.
The answer to these last questions are the main difference between our beliefs Billy. I know Jesus didn't nail His Laws to the Cross. He nailed the "Rudiments of the World", "the traditions of men", the "vain deceit" that had been taught, as Law, by the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet for centuries. Those where the handwriting of ordinances that were against Jesus and the Gentiles, and Paul. Not the "Good", "Just", "Holy" Laws of God.
Can you see? I truly hope you can. (I have goose bumps
)He was not literally carrying out the fourth word of the covenant with Israel. If you consider that breaking it, then yes He broke it. But the ten words NEVER stood on their own. He did not see the commandments as fully binding in their stark statements. They were a brief summary which then had to be modified. In fact all the commandments had to be modified, and Moses himself began immediately to do this (although not the fourth). That was later modified as God's mercy and compassion was applied. And Jesus agreed with the modification.
The Pharisees had reinterpreted 'all manner of work' to a ridiculous extent and had ignored the modification in the light of God's mercy. They took the command literally.
No I say that He did not intend it to be taken literally. The fourth word had to be modified like the rest. They did not stand on their own. They were just general guidance TO ISRAEL.
.
Because He accepted that it had not to be taken literally. What God never intended was that the fourth word should be taken literally. It was general quidance to ISRAEL.
They make you talk nonsense.
The Sermon on the Mount were during Jesus' ministry thus it was only for Jews. Yes, it was also during the dispensational time of the Law. As far as Covenants are concerned. The Old Covenants are still in effect as the New Covenant as Jesus taught was for the time during the Millennium or the Kingdom (on earth).
There is NO covenant(s) to the Gentiles and The Church (Body of Christ)
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Galatians 3:27-29, “For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. There is not Yehuḏi nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Galatians 3:27-29, “For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. There is not Yehuḏi nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”[/FONT]
This is the blood of the new covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins. THAT was His covenant with the body of Christ
As already shown, the New Covenant in the Lord's Supper included both Jews and Gentiles, and the Abrahamic Covenant had already included them. Paul brings this all of this out in his epistles. So the New Covenant does extend to the Church, since the New Birth is for all those who are in the Church. The Church has become the spiritual "seed of Abraham" through faith, thus the Church is also called "the Israel of God". This in no way validates Replacement Theology, but puts the Church under the New Covenant ratified with the blood of Christ.
Again, you are putting words in his mouth.....There was and is no covenant to His Church.
But for argument sake, I guess it could be the definition of a "covenant " one believes in.