The Secrets of Infallibility

emekrus · Sep 3, 2018

Your belief says our not following after holiness(pursuing holiness, righteous living) and peace with all men is not an hindrance for eternity with God...

While the quoted scripture (Hebrews 12:14) says if we don't follow peace with all men and holiness, we shall not see God. Hence, it places pursuing holiness and peace with all men as hindrance to seeing God. And of course, if you can't see God, then you can't spend eternity with him.

And this is the conflict.

Or am I getting you wrong?

emekrus · Sep 3, 2018

Adstar said:

Well Sir,

I can't accept this your "belief" because I am not convicted both with the scriptures and the Holy Ghost. And I will not accept it even with an armoured car pointed at me. Not even with a promise of a billion dollars.

But anyway, I can't speak for everyone. I don't have dominion over anyone's faith. I believe we all have the special gift of the Holy Ghost, Who guides us to All Truth. Then again I know we all also have the gift of choice by God. And I believe we are all smart enough to know what is true or not with the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

Adstar · Sep 3, 2018

emekrus said:

You don't seem to know what the word Holy means...

You seem to believe Holy means very good or perfect..

The Word Holy actually means :: set apart

So we Christians are set apart (holy) from other people because we believe in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and thus we are deemed rightious because our sins are forgiven and washed away..

So we are Holy ( set apart ) even when we still sin. Because we believe Jesus and trust in the atonement He secured for our salvation..

Adstar · Sep 3, 2018

emekrus said:

I never expected you to accept salvation as a loving gift from God.. You came here to preach works salvation and pursuing righteousness in corrupt human flesh which can never be achieved.. So i am not surprised your sticking to it .. My last few posts have really been for other people reading along so at lest they get the chance of seeing the difference between grace and works salvation..

Romans 7 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This flesh corrupt bodies will die and upon the resurrection God will deliver us and we shall receive Perfect eternal bodies because we believed God and trusted Him..

garee · Sep 3, 2018

emekrus said:

It is the peace of God the Father and the son working together in perfect harmony an mutual submission that does bring the peace that surpasses all human understanding . Its what we strive for because we have the confidence that Christ who has begun the good work of salvation will finish it to the end as those who have endured to the end . (Philipian1:6)

We have no continuing city but are given a living hope that will not disappoint those born again from above. If we sin he sends us a spirit of repentance or grace to ease our self, comfort our self of the burden, as an act of his mercy . If he does not first turn men as the first work with the hearing of His faith no man could repent and bear the childish things we do perform when we do sin.

This is unlike those who have no living hope. It will devour his enemies and not turn them to repent. They simply have knowledge of the truth as those in Hebrews 6 and not the better thing that accompanies salvation... all of the sins we could ever commit forgiven... called real redemption and not just a kick start placing a person to where Adam and Eve before they violated one law therefore being fould guilty of the whole .

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10: 26-27

emekrus · Sep 4, 2018

Adstar said:

Below is the Greek word translated as holiness in the context of the scripture we are considering:
'hagiasmos'

sanctification, holiness.

I agree with you that holy means set apart. But the verse we are considering is talking about pursuing the sanctification as a lifestyle. And even if you don't agree with that, the verse we are considering (Heb 12:14) started with pursuit of peace with all men before the holiness part. And the pursuit of both them is placed as a requirement for seeing God.

But your theory says the pursuit of both of them as a lifestyle is not a requirement for salvation. That's the conflict.

emekrus · Sep 4, 2018

Adstar said:

I never expected you to accept salvation as a loving gift from God.. You came here to preach works salvation and pursuing righteousness in corrupt human flesh which can never be achieved.. So i am not surprised your sticking to it .. My last few posts have really been for other people reading along so at lest they get the chance of seeing the difference between grace and works salvation..

Romans 7 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This flesh corrupt bodies will die and upon the resurrection God will deliver us and we shall receive Perfect eternal bodies because we believed God and trusted Him..

But as it stands brother, the scriptures agree with me that we are not saved only faith without works...

Below is what saint James says;
James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Sir, what are your takes on the above scriptures? And how do you also harmonise them with your belief?

Adstar · Sep 4, 2018

emekrus said:

In context::

James 14 KJV
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This above scripture is talking about people who claim to believe the LORD but do NO works .. they have not works ,, meaning they do not do any good deeds they do not have any genuine love..Obviously if a person is without any works in their life they are fakes and do not have the Faith in the LORD Jesus Christ..

Again those who have Faith will be motivated to do good works in one way or another.. But again their good works do not play a role in them paying for/ winning their own salvation.. Salvation is a gift from God through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Now i do believe those who do more works will receive a greater reward in eternity..

Matthew 16 KJV
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 23 KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

And finally this passage supports my position clearly::

I Corinthians 3 KJV

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Each man build upon the foundation that is the foundation of salvation through the Word of God.. The LORD Jesus Christ..A person has that foundation if they believe Jesus teachings and trust 100% in the atonement Jesus secured for their salvation... Once they are standing on that foundation they will be saved.. But in their lives they will go out and build their own works upon that secure foundation.. Some will do great works and will be a blessing to all around them.. Some will do less.. Some will have poor works.. But even the ones who do poorly will lose all their bonus reward.. But they themselves will be saved from the eternal lake of fire.. Because they built upon the Foundation of the saving Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ..

garee · Sep 4, 2018

emekrus said:

It would seem you keep putting the plow before the horse. Or the thing formed before our Potter who forms it .Therefore taking away the new understanding we have from God . The apostate Jews who refused to hear scripture performed that kind or oral traditon of men making the word of God without effect

God must do the first works that continues to work in us all the days of our lives that we live in theses bodies of death. All die with a living hope without receiving the promise our new incorruptible bodies.

Because we are set apart as new creatures we are given our faithful Creators complete confidence. Because he has begun this creative work in us to both will and do His good pleasure he will finish it till the end.

Because He dwells in us we can pursue peace with all men, a peace that surpasses all human understanding.

It is not the before the holiness part. It is the whole work of holiness .By the hearing of his faith. This is not of own understanding coming from the imaginations of ones heart. He gives us a new heart

For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:Phil 1:6

Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus Philippians 4:7

garee · Sep 4, 2018

emekrus said:

Of course scriptures agrees with the one author, the Spirit of Christ. This is in so much that we are not saved only faith without works...Christ's three day labor of love or work of faith is all that was required to appease the wrath of the Father. As a work of Christ's faith he drank up the cup of wrath intended for the believer.

Did his work of faith fall short of the glory of God?

As a imputed work that worked in Abraham and Rehab to both will and do His good pleasure they are considered friends of God. .Just like with every child of God. They as us will not be found with any righteousness of their own self

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James2:23-26

It is simply impossible to separate faith, the desire to work from the actual carrying out of it to the end .

Faith is a work that works in a body that has a spirit, For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith (Christ's) without (Christ's works) is dead also.

BenFTW · Sep 4, 2018

emekrus said:

You're reading that verse incorrectly. Its saying to pursue peace with all men AND holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Meaning the latter part of the verse is in reference to holiness, not pursuing peace with all men. You're attempting to bundle it up and its not meant to be.

As for holiness and not seeing the Lord, this statement isn't legalistic or prescriptive in nature, rather it is emphasizing the importance of holiness (descriptive in fact). Yes, it is prescriptive in telling us to pursue peace with all men and holiness, but the mentioning of not seeing the Lord without holiness is pointing to the gravity of the situation, if you will. Not that we don't see the Lord without works of merit, because Jesus has imputed His righteousness to us. He has redeemed and reconciled us, by His blood. Sin cannot be in the presence of God, so holiness is required. This holiness is from God through Christ. It is not from our own pursuit.

You would have to ignore the work of Christ to come to your conclusion.

emekrus · Sep 4, 2018

Adstar said:

Well Friend,

In as much as I do not agree with your exegesis holistically, I believe we are making progress in this scriptural discussion. At least you now agree that there is an essence to works or righteousness in the flesh. At least you said the people that work more will receive the greater rewards.

Alright, but concerning the book of James I quoted earlier, James categorically stated that we are not justified by faith only but also by works and you agree that the works he is referring to is our good works. You don't that the works are required for salvation but James states otherwise. Below is the scripture again:
James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

James asks a leading question here. He asks if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds or works can such faith save him?

And of course the obvious answer would be NO.

And with this, we can easily conclude that in spite of the fact that we already have faith in God, our deeds or works of Love is also a sine-qua-non for salvation.

Then Brother, added to the above exegesis, I also want to know your take on this scripture from Peter:
1 Peter 4:
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

In the above scripture, Peter says the righteous (the justified) scarcely(hardly) gets saved.

Question... what do you believe could make it hard for the righteous( the justified) to be hardly saved? Given your position.

Karraster · Sep 4, 2018

Is the popular verse John 3:16 appropriate for this thread? Or 17 and 18...

John 3: “For God so loved the world,i that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Reading further, remembering not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter in....

19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

garee · Sep 4, 2018

emekrus said:

You are ignoring the fact that the faith of Christ is the work of Christ as a three day labor of His love. His faith was not without work.

What would be impossible (not hard) would be for those that are declared righteous as imputed that they could be found with a righteousness of their own self.

For by (Christ's)grace are ye saved through (Christ's)faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, (we could perform ) lest any man should boast.Ephisians 2:8-10

Perfect harmony with James 2. If we would have the faith of Christ (coming from Chtist) in respect to our own self we would blaspheme the holy name by which we are called heavenward.

Cant separate what we do from what we hope.

Adstar · Sep 5, 2018

emekrus said:

Having no works shows that they do not have the right faith that saves.. The above scripture does not say anyone is saved by works.. It says that if a person has no works then that reveals that they do not have the right faith.. So such faith (that false faith that they have) cannot save them.. It is not stating that these types of people who do no works have the correct faith.. It is saying their lack of any works reveals they do not have the correct faith that saves.. Christians who have the right faith will be assisted by God in doing good works..

Your going to keep going posting one verse after another in a never ending thread are you.. When you have already posted enough verses where i have shared with you why they do not support your interpretation of scripture.. The unGodly do not even believe in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ, so of course their sins will not be forgiven..

But let me deal with 1 Peter 4..

The righteous in Christ will be saved in the scriptures above.. scarcely sill means they are saved, it does not matter if they are just saved.. If they are saved they are saved and we also know that narrow is the Way to salvation and few find it.. So yes those that are saved are few/ they are scarce which means few.. So either interpretation of the meaning of the word scarce still makes that verse true on both accounts..

Read what Jesus said::

Matthew 7 KJV
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

emekrus · Sep 6, 2018

Adstar said:

Well, another truth has been revealed from your mouth again. You now agree that there is a right kind of faith that saves. Which is the faith with works. On that I believe we are in perfect harmony. So that's what my teaching and preaching is all about. That people should have the right kind of faith that saves. Not the demonic faith we have proliferated everywhere with vain confidence.

As for posting verses upon verses, you came with a doctrinal attack, and of course, the only way to settle the matter is through the light of scriptures. You know, if a doctrine is wholesome it must agree with all scriptures. But all the same, since it seems you are already weary, I believe we can draw the curtain here and continue in another thread some day in the near future.

My posting scriptures upon scriptures is to get you to the point where we are right now.

At least through the list of scriptural discussion, it is obvious we have so many points of agreement, yet you are offended in my exegesis. All the same, it was a great time discussing with you.

See you in another thread soonest.

Emeke Odili

garee · Sep 6, 2018

emekrus said:

Well, another truth has been revealed from your mouth again. You now agree that there is a right kind of faith that saves. Which is the faith with works. On that I believe we are in perfect harmony. So that's what my teaching and preaching is all about. That people should have the right kind of faith that saves. Not the demonic faith we have proliferated everywhere with vain confidence.

As for posting verses upon verses, you came with a doctrinal attack, and of course, the only way to settle the matter is through the light of scriptures. You know, if a doctrine is wholesome it must agree with all scriptures. But all the same, since it seems you are already weary, I believe we can draw the curtain here and continue in another thread some day in the near future.

My posting scriptures upon scriptures is to get you to the point where we are right now.

At least through the list of scriptural discussion, it is obvious we have so many points of agreement, yet you are offended in my exegesis. All the same, it was a great time discussing with you.

See you in another thread soonest.

Emeke Odili

The right kind of faith we are saved by is the faith of Christ as the work of Christ and not that of the imaginations of ones own heart. Faith is the gift .Before conversion having none, not little but zero.

Search

The Secrets of Infallibility

emekrus

Senior Member

emekrus

Senior Member

Adstar

Senior Member

Adstar

Senior Member

garee

Banned

emekrus

Senior Member

emekrus

Senior Member

Adstar

Senior Member

garee

Banned

garee

Banned

BenFTW

Senior Member

emekrus

Senior Member

Karraster

Guest

garee

Banned

Adstar

Senior Member

emekrus

Senior Member

garee

Banned