The second coming of Jesus

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
You're right, but sometimes it's hard for us to find out own mistakes when we read the Bible,only by Holy Spirit reveal things to us.
You are correct. People accuse me of stating my own interpretations, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm concerned about the truth no matter where it leads me. I don't want the popular belief. I want to know what God's word truly says, which is why I am so adamant on these Biblical subjects. As a quick example, years and years ago, I wanted to know what 2 Thess.2 was really saying. And as I dug in and looked at it from every angle and praying on it, God finally gave me the answer regarding what others were teaching, which didn't sit well with me. Prior to that I did not see the answer, but then the Spirit revealed it to me. Now the answer sticks out like a sore thumb, i.e. it's obvious to me. The problem is that, to those whom it has not yet been revealed, the continue to believe and teach the interpretation that they adopted from teachings of men. I want to know what God is saying, not what someone else thinks God is saying. I have to know the answers for myself and be able to explain to others why and that by using scripture.
 
R

Rev316

Guest
What is the holy spirit promised in Acts 2:38?
 
R

Rev316

Guest
You are correct. People accuse me of stating my own interpretations, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm concerned about the truth no matter where it leads me. I don't want the popular belief. I want to know what God's word truly says, which is why I am so adamant on these Biblical subjects. As a quick example, years and years ago, I wanted to know what 2 Thess.2 was really saying. And as I dug in and looked at it from every angle and praying on it, God finally gave me the answer regarding what others were teaching, which didn't sit well with me. Prior to that I did not see the answer, but then the Spirit revealed it to me. Now the answer sticks out like a sore thumb, i.e. it's obvious to me. The problem is that, to those whom it has not yet been revealed, the continue to believe and teach the interpretation that they adopted from teachings of men. I want to know what God is saying, not what someone else thinks God is saying. I have to know the answers for myself and be able to explain to others why and that by using scripture.
So what is the answer to 2 thes 2?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
Some things are not about the Bible to help you understand the "dragon" in the Bible

The chinese dragon had nine sons and each of them was different from the others,
The fourth son stir up a fire and burn himself

the nine planets of the solar system before, now is eight

but the fourth planet is Mars
Mercury (☿), Venus( ♀)、 Earth (⊕), Mars( ♂)
Scientists say Mars has found evidence of massive nuclear explosions.
There is a high concentration of xenon 129 in the Martian atmosphere
Abundant uranium and thorium have been detected in many places on the surface of Mars, which is inconsistent with the composition of Martian rock samples analyzed by Mars probe.

I don't know the truth of the legend or the discovery of Mars,

It just seems to me that these things are related
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
Sitchin Nibiru
Some things are not about the Bible to help you understand the "dragon" in the Bible

The chinese dragon had nine sons and each of them was different from the others,
The fourth son stir up a fire and burn himself

the nine planets of the solar system before, now is eight

but the fourth planet is Mars
Mercury (☿), Venus( ♀)、 Earth (⊕), Mars( ♂)
Scientists say Mars has found evidence of massive nuclear explosions.
There is a high concentration of xenon 129 in the Martian atmosphere
Abundant uranium and thorium have been detected in many places on the surface of Mars, which is inconsistent with the composition of Martian rock samples analyzed by Mars probe.

I don't know the truth of the legend or the discovery of Mars,

It just seems to me that these things are related
Zecharia Sitchin and Nibiru
If what he translates is the true meaning,
Mars seems to be closest to Nibiru
I'm not saying that I support of alien creationism, I only trust in God.
Zecharia Sitchin said Gold can repair the Nibiru atmosphere

I think Zecharia Sitchin just goes to the wrong way about alien creationism,
He didn't think it might be a parables or a prophecy
Maybe one day,we can fix the Martian atmosphere with Gold.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
So what is the answer to 2 thes 2?
Greetings, Rev316,

I'm always happy to share what I know, whether people believe it or not. Of course, I like it better when they look at the scriptures and do what the Bereans did. That said, I'll post the scripture again:

============================================================
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
=====================================================================================

* The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him

* The Day of the Lord has already come

As you can see, Paul starts out with "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him and then in verse 2 refers to "The Day of the Lord." Many do not catch Paul's change to "the Day of the Lord" in v. 2 and read right over it so that they interpret it as follows:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come."

"The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" is of course referring to John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:16-17 and I Cor.15:51-53, which all have to do with believers within the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, aka the rapture. The Day of the Lord on the other hand, is the time period of God's wrath, the book of Revelation being a detailed account of said wrath. I've said it before and say again, I wish that we had a copy of the letter that the Thessalonians sent to Paul which prompted his response to them. If we did have it, I'm sure that this whole controversy would immediately be cleared up.

To understand Paul's response it is very important to understand why the Thessalonians wrote him about this. And the answer is that, there were people there in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already come. In support of them knowing this, in v.5, Paul says to them "Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?" So, the Thessalonians knew the order of these events to first be the gathering of the church, with the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, to follow. These are two separate events which are closely linked together. For once the church is gathered, the time of God's wrath immediately follows, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that that two witness bring.

All that said, because there were people there in Thessalonica teaching that the Day of the Lord/the time of God's wrath had already come, the Thessalonian's were concerned as to why they were not caught up to meet the Lord air. They were concerned that they had entered into the time period of God's wrath. Hey Paul! How come we were not caught up to meet the Lord in the air like you taught us? And of course Paul comforts them, telling them not to let anyone deceive them in any way, for 'The Day of the Lord" will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

The Lord took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe and we must therefore be gathered to the Lord and removed from the earth prior to said wrath.

There are some who have been creative in interpreting this scripture. As and example, regarding the following:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it (Day of the Lord) will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. "

The word apostasia translated as 'apostasy' can be translated as rebellion, revolt, defection and departure. So, they took the word 'departure' and interpreted it to mean to depart up into the air to meet the Lord. However, if one is going to use the word 'departure' it must retain the original meaning of apostasia, which 'implies desertion from a previous standing.' In this case it would mean departure from ones stand in faith. In further support of this, the only other place the word 'apostasia' is used, is in Acts 21:21 when the one speaking with Paul said,

"But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs."

So, 'anastastia' is used to describe departing from the teachings of the Law given through Moses.

I could not buy into that interpretation either. They are basically believing and teaching that the scripture says the following:

"The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him, will not take place until we depart up to meet Him in the air," which is basically repeating the same thing.

In I Thessaloniahs 4:16-18, 5:1-5, Paul also gives us the chronological order of the these two events:

The Gathering of the Church
=============================================================================
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. - I Thess.4:16-17
=================================================================================

Then regarding the above, Paul says:
============================================================================
Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. - I Thess.5:1-5
===========================================================================

To be grammatically correct, the 'times and seasons' that Paul mentions, would have to refer back to what he had just spoken about, which was the dead being resurrected and the living being caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. That said, if I were to paraphrase it would read as follows:

Now about the times and seasons of when the Lord descends from heaven and the living are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we do not need to write to you. Notice once again in v.2, that Paul after giving a detailed account of our being gathered to the Lord, he again refers to the Day of the Lord, which follows the gathering of the church. He also gives the order of these two events in v.3-4:

"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. "

Those who will be saying "Peace and Security" will be the wicked. The sudden destruction that will come upon them, is in reference to the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. Then notice after he refers to those who will be saying "Peace and security" he says, "But you, brothers." I don't even have to finish the rest of the verse, because the words "but you, brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping. He then says that we do not belong to the night or darkness, which represents that time of God's wrath where the sudden destruction will come upon them. Paul's meaning of this time of darkness (the day of the Lord) not overtaking us, is because the event of the church being caught up in the air will take place prior to that, with the darkness immediately following. And since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be gathered prior to said wrath.

I hope this information is beneficial.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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To understand Paul's response it is very important to understand why the Thessalonians wrote him about this. And the answer is that, there were people there in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already come.
You would think if The Day of the Lord had already come, and it's calamity was similar to what we see in Revelation, they would have known that they hadn't been through any thing like that yet.
Are you sure they weren't fearful that the Coming/Gathering is what they missed?
 
R

Rev316

Guest
Do you mean ‘who’ is the Holy Spirit In Acts 2:38?
Yes, the same power, yet another comforter, and yet Jesus manifests Himself to the believer through "Mr." Holy Spirit

....

I don't know enough, trying to be teachable

:)
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
Greetings, Rev316,

I'm always happy to share what I know, whether people believe it or not. Of course, I like it better when they look at the scriptures and do what the Bereans did. That said, I'll post the scripture again:

============================================================
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
=====================================================================================

* The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him

* The Day of the Lord has already come

As you can see, Paul starts out with "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him and then in verse 2 refers to "The Day of the Lord." Many do not catch Paul's change to "the Day of the Lord" in v. 2 and read right over it so that they interpret it as follows:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come."

"The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" is of course referring to John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:16-17 and I Cor.15:51-53, which all have to do with believers within the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, aka the rapture. The Day of the Lord on the other hand, is the time period of God's wrath, the book of Revelation being a detailed account of said wrath. I've said it before and say again, I wish that we had a copy of the letter that the Thessalonians sent to Paul which prompted his response to them. If we did have it, I'm sure that this whole controversy would immediately be cleared up.

To understand Paul's response it is very important to understand why the Thessalonians wrote him about this. And the answer is that, there were people there in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already come. In support of them knowing this, in v.5, Paul says to them "Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?" So, the Thessalonians knew the order of these events to first be the gathering of the church, with the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, to follow. These are two separate events which are closely linked together. For once the church is gathered, the time of God's wrath immediately follows, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that that two witness bring.

All that said, because there were people there in Thessalonica teaching that the Day of the Lord/the time of God's wrath had already come, the Thessalonian's were concerned as to why they were not caught up to meet the Lord air. They were concerned that they had entered into the time period of God's wrath. Hey Paul! How come we were not caught up to meet the Lord in the air like you taught us? And of course Paul comforts them, telling them not to let anyone deceive them in any way, for 'The Day of the Lord" will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

The Lord took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe and we must therefore be gathered to the Lord and removed from the earth prior to said wrath.

There are some who have been creative in interpreting this scripture. As and example, regarding the following:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it (Day of the Lord) will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. "

The word apostasia translated as 'apostasy' can be translated as rebellion, revolt, defection and departure. So, they took the word 'departure' and interpreted it to mean to depart up into the air to meet the Lord. However, if one is going to use the word 'departure' it must retain the original meaning of apostasia, which 'implies desertion from a previous standing.' In this case it would mean departure from ones stand in faith. In further support of this, the only other place the word 'apostasia' is used, is in Acts 21:21 when the one speaking with Paul said,

"But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs."

So, 'anastastia' is used to describe departing from the teachings of the Law given through Moses.

I could not buy into that interpretation either. They are basically believing and teaching that the scripture says the following:

"The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him, will not take place until we depart up to meet Him in the air," which is basically repeating the same thing.

In I Thessaloniahs 4:16-18, 5:1-5, Paul also gives us the chronological order of the these two events:

The Gathering of the Church
=============================================================================
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. - I Thess.4:16-17
=================================================================================

Then regarding the above, Paul says:
============================================================================
Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. - I Thess.5:1-5
===========================================================================

To be grammatically correct, the 'times and seasons' that Paul mentions, would have to refer back to what he had just spoken about, which was the dead being resurrected and the living being caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. That said, if I were to paraphrase it would read as follows:

Now about the times and seasons of when the Lord descends from heaven and the living are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we do not need to write to you. Notice once again in v.2, that Paul after giving a detailed account of our being gathered to the Lord, he again refers to the Day of the Lord, which follows the gathering of the church. He also gives the order of these two events in v.3-4:

"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. "

Those who will be saying "Peace and Security" will be the wicked. The sudden destruction that will come upon them, is in reference to the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. Then notice after he refers to those who will be saying "Peace and security" he says, "But you, brothers." I don't even have to finish the rest of the verse, because the words "but you, brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping. He then says that we do not belong to the night or darkness, which represents that time of God's wrath where the sudden destruction will come upon them. Paul's meaning of this time of darkness (the day of the Lord) not overtaking us, is because the event of the church being caught up in the air will take place prior to that, with the darkness immediately following. And since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be gathered prior to said wrath.

I hope this information is beneficial.
And after all that, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 still says that Jesus' return, and our subsequent gathering to Him, still does not happen until after the the falling away (apostasy of the church) and the man of sin is revealed. Meaning that's a post-tribulation return of Jesus.

The scriptures aren't wrong. Recognize this first and foremost. Because your ultimate conclusion contradicts the written word. Therefore, you're way off.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
Yes, the same power, yet another comforter, and yet Jesus manifests Himself to the believer through "Mr." Holy Spirit

....

I don't know enough, trying to be teachable

:)
If you are teachable, the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an It. He is the 3rd person of the Trinity, equal as God as much as the Father and the Son are God. He also is involved in... creating, empowering, convicting, and illuminating our understanding to God's Word.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. (Gen 1:2)


But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Joh 14:26)

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
(Joh 16:8-11)
 
R

Rev316

Guest
Greetings, Rev316,

I'm always happy to share what I know, whether people believe it or not. Of course, I like it better when they look at the scriptures and do what the Bereans did. That said, I'll post the scripture again:



I hope this information is beneficial.
Wow, thank you.

(Sounds like a Calvary Chapel teaching I heard once)

You leave it scripturely vague as for pre-trip/ mid-trib (I approve)

My current understanding is mid trib because wrath is after seal 6. (Technically rev 14:19, wrath involving bloodshed. In Rev 11:14 a woe is not "wrath" yet. Rev 7 is the sealing of saints - the multitude appeared, but in heaven time (spiritual vision) , perhaps all persevering saints from rev 8-14, (?) except this concept has challenges when virgins appear and are noted in rev 14. )

Rev 11:13 the remnant gave glory to God of heaven (possible referring to Jews only? Or new tribulation believers? Is there a way the church could have a remnant (a very Jewish term) )

(Also, note in Rev 13, the world worships the DRAGON for MIRACULOUS HEALING the head wound)


Revelation 6:11-12,16-17
[11]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Believers still need to die (not the rapture yet)
[12]And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[16]And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17]For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

in my opinion, the 7 th seal is the wrath

Revelation 14:6-10,12-16
[6]And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

[7]Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

how many denominations if that was the gospel proclaimed? (Nvm)

[8]And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
[9]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

fair warning

[12]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

still on earth

[13]And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

they will die "in the Lord"

[14]And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

compare to v17-19

[15]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
[16]And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Jesus used this imagery, wheat and tares (tares are not a harvest)
my opinion, this sickle reaps only the "sealed"



Revelation 14:17-20
[17]And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

special sickle for children of wrath

[18]And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

like Isaiah
[19]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[20]And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

thanks thanks for reading. I'm not 100% and welcome scriptural correction :)

I just realized technically if rev 14:16 is the rapture of the church, rev 14: 17-20 could be the wrath on unbelieving world. Therefore it would be post-trib because no more trib for anyone
remember Jesus said the days are cut short for the elects sake. (Implying the elect go through the tribulation)


This article makes good points about mid trib, exposing shortfalls of pre-trib, with scripture:
 
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R

Rev316

Guest
If you are teachable, the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an It. He is the 3rd person of the Trinity, equal as God as much as the Father and the Son are God. He also is involved in... creating, empowering, convicting, and illuminating our understanding to God's Word.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. (Gen 1:2)


But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Joh 14:26)

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
(Joh 16:8-11)
Maybe I haven't received Him?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
Do you believe that crude yet artsy graven image of the Lord Jesus glorifies him?
Just make it easy to understand with pics.
I believe we are in a big trouble,
Because the basic trust between people is gone.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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Maybe I haven't received Him?
If you haven't received Jesus, what hope do you have of being saved?...

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
You would think if The Day of the Lord had already come, and it's calamity was similar to what we see in Revelation, they would have known that they hadn't been through any thing like that yet.
Are you sure they weren't fearful that the Coming/Gathering is what they missed?
They were concerned about both events. Because since there were people teaching that the day of the Lord had already come, it would mean that they had missed being caught up and were now going to face God's wrath. They go hand in hand.
 
May 22, 2020
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You are correct. People accuse me of stating my own interpretations, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm concerned about the truth no matter where it leads me. I don't want the popular belief. I want to know what God's word truly says, which is why I am so adamant on these Biblical subjects. As a quick example, years and years ago, I wanted to know what 2 Thess.2 was really saying. And as I dug in and looked at it from every angle and praying on it, God finally gave me the answer regarding what others were teaching, which didn't sit well with me. Prior to that I did not see the answer, but then the Spirit revealed it to me. Now the answer sticks out like a sore thumb, i.e. it's obvious to me. The problem is that, to those whom it has not yet been revealed, the continue to believe and teach the interpretation that they adopted from teachings of men. I want to know what God is saying, not what someone else thinks God is saying. I have to know the answers for myself and be able to explain to others why and that by using scripture.

I am so glad to have another with me in my thinking. I could have not composed my feelings better. Thanks.
God revealed the two witnesses to me in the same manner with proof in scriptures.

He is great. Praise God!!!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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And after all that, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 still says that Jesus' return, and our subsequent gathering to Him, still does not happen until after the the falling away (apostasy of the church) and the man of sin is revealed. Meaning that's a post-tribulation return of Jesus.

The scriptures aren't wrong. Recognize this first and foremost. Because your ultimate conclusion contradicts the written word. Therefore, you're way off.
Hi Runningman,

I don't think that you understood my post. The scripture states that "The Day of the Lord" will not come until the apostasy occurs and that man of lawlessness is revealed. In other words, the proof that the Day of the Lord is here would be the apostasy and the revealing of that man of lawlessness. I personally believe that the apostasy has been taking place, as I don't believe that it would bee something that would happen over night.


Gathering of the Church
The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to him

Followed by

The Day of the Lord (time of God's wrath)
apostasy and man of lawlessness revealed
 
May 22, 2020
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Greetings, Rev316,

I'm always happy to share what I know, whether people believe it or not. Of course, I like it better when they look at the scriptures and do what the Bereans did. That said, I'll post the scripture again:

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Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
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* The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him

* The Day of the Lord has already come

As you can see, Paul starts out with "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him and then in verse 2 refers to "The Day of the Lord." Many do not catch Paul's change to "the Day of the Lord" in v. 2 and read right over it so that they interpret it as follows:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come."

"The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" is of course referring to John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:16-17 and I Cor.15:51-53, which all have to do with believers within the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, aka the rapture. The Day of the Lord on the other hand, is the time period of God's wrath, the book of Revelation being a detailed account of said wrath. I've said it before and say again, I wish that we had a copy of the letter that the Thessalonians sent to Paul which prompted his response to them. If we did have it, I'm sure that this whole controversy would immediately be cleared up.

To understand Paul's response it is very important to understand why the Thessalonians wrote him about this. And the answer is that, there were people there in Thessalonica teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already come. In support of them knowing this, in v.5, Paul says to them "Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?" So, the Thessalonians knew the order of these events to first be the gathering of the church, with the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, to follow. These are two separate events which are closely linked together. For once the church is gathered, the time of God's wrath immediately follows, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that that two witness bring.

All that said, because there were people there in Thessalonica teaching that the Day of the Lord/the time of God's wrath had already come, the Thessalonian's were concerned as to why they were not caught up to meet the Lord air. They were concerned that they had entered into the time period of God's wrath. Hey Paul! How come we were not caught up to meet the Lord in the air like you taught us? And of course Paul comforts them, telling them not to let anyone deceive them in any way, for 'The Day of the Lord" will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

The Lord took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe and we must therefore be gathered to the Lord and removed from the earth prior to said wrath.

There are some who have been creative in interpreting this scripture. As and example, regarding the following:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it (Day of the Lord) will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. "

The word apostasia translated as 'apostasy' can be translated as rebellion, revolt, defection and departure. So, they took the word 'departure' and interpreted it to mean to depart up into the air to meet the Lord. However, if one is going to use the word 'departure' it must retain the original meaning of apostasia, which 'implies desertion from a previous standing.' In this case it would mean departure from ones stand in faith. In further support of this, the only other place the word 'apostasia' is used, is in Acts 21:21 when the one speaking with Paul said,

"But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs."

So, 'anastastia' is used to describe departing from the teachings of the Law given through Moses.

I could not buy into that interpretation either. They are basically believing and teaching that the scripture says the following:

"The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him, will not take place until we depart up to meet Him in the air," which is basically repeating the same thing.

In I Thessaloniahs 4:16-18, 5:1-5, Paul also gives us the chronological order of the these two events:

The Gathering of the Church
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For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. - I Thess.4:16-17
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Then regarding the above, Paul says:
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Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. - I Thess.5:1-5
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To be grammatically correct, the 'times and seasons' that Paul mentions, would have to refer back to what he had just spoken about, which was the dead being resurrected and the living being caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. That said, if I were to paraphrase it would read as follows:

Now about the times and seasons of when the Lord descends from heaven and the living are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we do not need to write to you. Notice once again in v.2, that Paul after giving a detailed account of our being gathered to the Lord, he again refers to the Day of the Lord, which follows the gathering of the church. He also gives the order of these two events in v.3-4:

"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. "

Those who will be saying "Peace and Security" will be the wicked. The sudden destruction that will come upon them, is in reference to the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. Then notice after he refers to those who will be saying "Peace and security" he says, "But you, brothers." I don't even have to finish the rest of the verse, because the words "but you, brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping. He then says that we do not belong to the night or darkness, which represents that time of God's wrath where the sudden destruction will come upon them. Paul's meaning of this time of darkness (the day of the Lord) not overtaking us, is because the event of the church being caught up in the air will take place prior to that, with the darkness immediately following. And since believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then we must be gathered prior to said wrath.

I hope this information is beneficial.

Why are you using a new age religion Bible...with NEW slanted interpretations of God's word?