the Sabbath

[SabbathBlessing]

Agree, although we might have a different definition on a few things. What you are stating has never been an argument I have made. What the argument we are discussing is people claiming God's Ten Commandments is not part of the law written in the heart and we no longer need to keep them, including the Sabbath, but that's not something taught through scripture. Of course love fulfills the law when keeping the commandments. When we love God we would only worship Him, we would not bow to idols, we would not use His name in an unholy manner, nor would we break His holy Sabbath day. If we love our fellow man we would not steal from them, or murder, or covet and Jesus taught on the Ten Commandments what the law is really about a heart change, He relates our feelings to how they affect God's law and if He changes us from the inside out, feelings of anger would turn to love and compassion and thou shalt not murder wouldn't even be a consideration. This is what it means to walk by the spirit of the law which is greater than the letter. If one is breaking the letter,, they are not keeping the spirit of the law.

Edit ran out of time, what I meant to say if is our heart is changed, thou shalt not murder, the letter would automatically be kept. What some seem to teach which is not indicated in the scriptures that if we are Spirit-led somehow that translates into not having to obey God's commandments, but its quite the opposite. The commandments are not kept to save us, it shows us how someone saved lives.

Rev 14:12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Through the power of the Holy Spirit

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

 

[Sipsey]

Agree, although we might have a different definition on a few things. What you are stating has never been an argument I have made. What the argument we are discussing is people claiming God's Ten Commandments is not part of the law written in the heart and we no longer need to keep them, including the Sabbath, but that's not something taught through scripture. Of course love fulfills the law when keeping the commandments. When we love God we would only worship Him, we would not bow to idols, we would not use His name in an unholy manner, nor would we break His holy Sabbath day. If we love our fellow man we would not steal from them, or murder, or covet and Jesus taught on the Ten Commandments what the law is really about a heart change, He relates our feelings to how they affect God's law and if He changes us from the inside out, feelings of anger would turn to love and compassion and thou shalt not murder wouldn't even be a consideration. This is what it means to walk by the spirit of the law which is greater than the letter. If one is breaking the letter,, they are not keeping the spirit of the law.

Have you ever met someone who kept the law perfectly?

 

[Sipsey]

Have you ever met someone who kept the law perfectly?

What I mean to say is that many believe in a relative righteousness, rather than perfect righteousness. I have met many good Christian’s, they admitted and knew they could not achieve perfection in these bodies However, they repented daily and prayed often. Sanctification is a life long process that inspires hope, not in ourselves, but in the risen Christ. He said we could do nothing without Him. He actually gets all the credit. We have nothing to boast of.

 

[ewq1938]

You are the one making the argument from silence. As proven there is nothing in the Ten Commandments that has to do with the animal sacrifices or food or drink. If its not there it means its not true.

No, you are employing a logical fallacy known as the argument from silence. It doesn't have to appear in the first ten laws. It is found in the other laws and you know this is true.

 

[Magenta]

That wasn't what was being discussed - of course we need Jesus Christ, we are nothing without
Him and all things are possible through Him Phil 4:13 even obedience to Him John 14:15-18

You say it was not being discussed and yet that is what I responded to...

 

[SabbathBlessing]

No, you are employing a logical fallacy known as the argument from silence. It doesn't have to appear in the first ten laws. It is found in the other laws and you know this is true.

Yes it’s found in the law of Moses not the Ten Commandments a different law and my point.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Have you ever met someone who kept the law perfectly?

I know people who dedicate their lives to Christ and do not live in perpetual sin. No Christian should be living in perpetual sin. If we are struggling with sin, we need to spend more time in prayer. Sin should be painful because of what it did to Jesus Christ on the Cross and if it’s not, we need reevaluate our relationship with Him. We need to die of sin and be reborn in Christ Rom 6:1-3. People come to Christ and think their lives remain the same, but we need a conversion, everything should be different.

Though the power of Jesus Christ we can overcome sin, He tells us there is a people who does overcome Rev 14:12 through His Spirit John 14:15-18. If we stumble and fall, we should immediately repent and ask for Christ’s help to overcome, but I believe our God is more powerful to keep us from sin, than the devil is to keep us in sin. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21, we are not saved in our sins Heb 10:26-30. It’s a matter of who we are placing our faith in.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes it’s found in the law of Moses not the Ten Commandments a different law and my point.

The law of Moses includes the ten commandments. It is called his law not because he made any of it but because God gave it to him to give to the people which started with ten and later included many more.

 

[vassal]

So, ignore what the NT has to say about it? No.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The first covenant had so many faults, it needed to be replaced by a better covenant upon better promises.

please do define the new covenant, what you wrote does not say what the new covenant is only that is better. Certainly you know Paul is quoting Jeremiah on the new covenant? please define the contents of the new covenant if you can.

 

[vassal]

If we could not keep the commandments, God would not have given them to us in the first place here are some verses that says we can and should follow the commandments;

• John 8:11 - "Go now and leave your life of sin."
• Matthew 4:17 - "From that time on Jesus began to preach, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.'"
• Mark 1:15 - "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!" (
• Luke 13:3,5 - "No, I tell you, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
• Acts 3:19 - "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from God, and that he may send Jesus, the promised descendant, to you."
• Acts 17:30 - "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
• Revelation 2:5 - "Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it and repent. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
• Revelation 3:19 - "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

Yes, a lot of talk about repentance from sin as defined by the 10 Commandments.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The law of Moses includes the ten commandments. It is called his law not because he made any of it but because God gave it to him to give to the people which started with ten and later included many more.

God's law is included in everyone's law, including the law of Moses, but they are very separate covenants according to God. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Deut 5:22

God called the Ten Commandments- "My commandments" Exo 20:6 i.e. God's commandments- Moses is not God.

Did this change in New Covenant?

Not according to Jesus who I believe is trustworthy

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;

Only found in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:12

The law of Moses is still the law of Moses in the New Covenant

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Paul contrasted these laws and came to this conclusion

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Sanctification is a life long process that inspires hope, not in ourselves, but in the risen Christ. He said we could do nothing without Him. He actually gets all the credit. We have nothing to boast of.

I agree with this completely, sanctification is a life long process, but if we are hostile to God's law we are an enmity to God. Rom 8:7-8 So this argument that is being taught by most churches that we don't have to obey God and His commandments is leading people down the wrong path. This is the very first lie that deceived our first parents that we can disobey God and live, the opposite of what God said that is still working. We can't even get to the sanctification part if we don't allow God to define sin which He does 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 so we can confess and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 working with His Spirit which enables us to keep His commandments John 14:15-18. Man can't sanctify themselves, not a good place to be come Judgement Day Isa 66:17 only God can sanctify a day Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:8-11 only God can sanctity us Eze 20:12 we need God for everything.

 

[GWH]

The observance of the 7th day Sabbath was specifically given to Israel. After the New Covenant was established by Christ, the Sabbath days were deemed to be "shadows" of the reality of Christ, who is Lord of the Sabbath, and who said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Col 2:16,17)

Amen!

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The weekly Sabbath can't be a shadow of anything because it started at Creation Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11 when God made everything perfect before the fall of man.

The shadow sabbaths (plural) that have to do with food, drink offerings and are referring to the annual holy feast days which some were sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses and ordinances the context of this passage found in Col 2:14 which point to Deut 3:24-26 not Creation or our Creator which is what the weekly Sabbath points to Exo 20:11.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The weekly Sabbath is holy and blessed by God- written by His finger and is a commandment- Paul is not referring to one of God's commandments and he clearly shows in the context.

Scriptures show what he's referring to....

which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The sacrificial system which was fulfilled in Christ

Hebrews 10:1 10 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once [a]purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

This is a tough verse and sadly many use it against one of God's commandments, but Paul never countermanded God, he can be hard to understand so its important we carefully and prayerfully read the context and see how it matches up with other teachings like Jesus in His own Words said the Sabbath would not end at the Cross but would be kept decades later for His faithful Mat 24:20 and for eternity Isa 66:23

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Heb 9:10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various [b]washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The blood of animals could never take away sin, which is why Jesus had to become our Sacrificial Lamb.

Sin is still the same in the New Covenant- breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 but instead of taking an animal sacrifice we can go directly to Jesus when we confess us sins, and repentance which means a change in direction- once He forgives He says go and sin no more.

 

[rrcn]

The observance of the 7th day Sabbath was specifically given to Israel. After the New Covenant was established by Christ, the Sabbath days were deemed to be "shadows" of the reality of Christ, who is Lord of the Sabbath, and who said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Col 2:16,17)

The Sabbath was created by God:
[Gen 2:2-3 KJV] 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

For man:
[Mar 2:27 KJV] 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Those who keep the commandments (including the fourth commandment) and the faith of Jesus will be saved:

[Rev 14:7 KJV] 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

[Rev 14:12 KJV] 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And will remain after the curse is gone:
[Isa 66:22-23 KJV] 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
[Rev 22:2-3 KJV] 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
[Rev 22:3-5 KJV] 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[ewq1938]

God's law is included in everyone's law, including the law of Moses, but they are very separate covenants according to God.

Nope. The ten commandment are simply the first ten laws of all of God's law, also called the law of Moses because God gave the law to him to give to Israel.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Nope. The ten commandment are simply the first ten laws of all of God's law, also called the law of Moses because God gave the law to him to give to Israel.

Well God said something different. Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 Deut 4:13 For me, that's Who I am going to believe but we are given free will.

 

[ewq1938]

Well God said something different.

No, He did not.

 

[vassal]

No, He did not.

hello ewq,

You never defined the new covenant, please do not take this the wrong way, just trying to help, not prove people wrong.

Here is the old covenant clearly defined;

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.


Now here is also the new covenant defined;

Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.
Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbour and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The new covenant will be characterized by several features:

nstead of being external and written on tablets of stone, the law will be written on the hearts of God's people, leading to a deeper understanding and obedience to God's will.

The New Covenant will provide for the forgiveness of sins, not just the forgiveness of sins committed in ignorance, but also the forgiveness of willful sins (up to a certain point) (Hebrews 9:15-20).

The Holy Spirit's presence: The New Covenant will be accompanied by the presence and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, empowering believers to live in accordance with God's will (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

A personal relationship with God: The New Covenant will enable individuals to have a personal relationship with God, characterized by intimacy, trust, and love (Jeremiah 31:3).

The New Covenant was initiated by the coming of the Messiah, who was be the ultimate sacrifice for sins and establish a new relationship between God and his people, yes Jews and gentiles alike.

Peace be with you.