The Rapture

[popeye]

Popeye, I will concede that pre-trib has a scriptural position if you will explain to this forum why in Matt 24, Mark 13, Jesus said that He would return in the sky, with angels and a trumpet blast and gather all the believers AFTER THE TRIBULATION?? Explain to us why Jesus was not saying what Jesus was saying. If you can honestly address what Jesus said about His return to gather those who believe in Him, then do so. And PLEASE just stick to what Jesus said, no essays on why you THINK there should be a pre-trib rapture.

We both believe he returns postrib.

But you guys never seem to reconcile that the angels gather postrib from heaven. Of course they gather from heaven. The church was already there.

A better question would be why none of you guys ever saw rev 14's rapture making a postrb rapture impossible.

You are actually entertaining a postrib rapture possibility???

After reading rev 14's rapture DURING the GT?

 

[valiant]

The scorpions are told not to eat any green thing. That makes your cunning ascribing seem a little silly LOL

Because they are described in terms of locusts, who would eat every green thing. But these are not green eaters (not real locusts) but man destroyers. You see once one looks carefully one understands.

 

[samuel23]

Hey Noname: Pre-trib vs post trib is much more critical then you might suppose. Jesus gave the church a post-trib rapture, this was backed up by Paul in the Thess letters, and confirmed by John in Rev 6-7. The church believed this for hundreds of years until 1830 when a man named John Darby begin to teach the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, it had no scripture to back it up but it did give a way out of the tribulation, so people accepted it. It is an end time deception designed by Satan to cause vast numbers of Christians to fall away from the faith when the Antichrist appears and Jesus did not return to rapture them pre-trib.

 

[valiant]

A better question would be why none of you guys ever saw rev 14's rapture making a postrb rapture impossible.

You are actually entertaining a postrib rapture possibility???

sigh. there is no 'great tribulation' for the world. And it is certainly not mentioned in Rev 14.

After reading rev 14's rapture DURING the GT?

LOL all read in.

 

[samuel23]

Your twisting again. The angles do not gather from heaven, read the rest of the story, Jesus appears in the sky, with angels, and a trumpet blast, and sends the angels all across the earth to gather those who believe in him from one end of the sky to the other. Jesus even gave the examples of people doing human things when they are suddenly taken by the angels to meet Christ in the sky.

 

[popeye]

Hey Popeye, I don't know why you keep singing that same old song, "post just one post trib verse". They have been posted for you over and over and over, you just pretend that you do not see them. Here they are for you to read again, the words of Jesus Himself describing His return to rapture the church. Matt 24:29 immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days...shall appear the Son of man in heaven..and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven...and they shall gather His chosen from the four winds. OK, now it is your turn to quote me a scripture that says that Jesus will return before the tribulation. You can twist scripture until it looks like a pretzel but you will never find where it says that Jesus will return before the tribulation...BECAUSE JOHN DARBY MADE THAT IDEA UP!

You still need one verse. That is a gathering IN HEAVEN.( why did you edit that verse?)
You had to edit it for your doctrines sake.

You bring up Darby? He had a better vantage point. Of course you leave out the game changer. Namely ISRAEL BECOMING A NATION. You comb through viewpoints of dead men that never saw Israel restored. They didn't know what they were talking about.
AMAZINGLY you guys quote dead men that never saw it. Israel restored RESET THE PROPHETIC CLOCK.

I am appalled you guys leave out major components.

 

[serpentdove]

 

[popeye]

Hey Noname: Pre-trib vs post trib is much more critical then you might suppose. Jesus gave the church a post-trib rapture, this was backed up by Paul in the Thess letters, and confirmed by John in Rev 6-7. The church believed this for hundreds of years until 1830 when a man named John Darby begin to teach the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, it had no scripture to back it up but it did give a way out of the tribulation, so people accepted it. It is an end time deception designed by Satan to cause vast numbers of Christians to fall away from the faith when the Antichrist appears and Jesus did not return to rapture them pre-trib.

So,you don't debate bible. You rely on research by your teachers that leave out the FACT that the Catholics burned heretics ,their writings and entire villages,leaving catholic doctrine of perverted end times that you guys drink up as holy facts.

You literally seek and drink and rely on Catholics to promote a doctrine I can debunk with ease.

You guys have zero standing. Zero

 

[popeye]

Your twisting again. The angles do not gather from heaven, read the rest of the story, Jesus appears in the sky, with angels, and a trumpet blast, and sends the angels all across the earth to gather those who believe in him from one end of the sky to the other. Jesus even gave the examples of people doing human things when they are suddenly taken by the angels to meet Christ in the sky.

Oh,really?
So the fact there is a gathering by Jesus with no angels in rev 14 DURING THE GT,doesn't give you a slight pause that you are completely off the map prophetically?

Pssst,you need a resurrection of dead in Christ PRECEDING those alive. (you left that out)

 

[popeye]

sigh. there is no 'great tribulation' for the world. And it is certainly not mentioned in Rev 14.



LOL all read in.

Already did. Now read rev 15 and get back to me. You will see why he gathered them before hell is released on earth's inhabitants.

Easy to see you are not into the word.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

we can agree to disagree


@sam


if im following Jesus i wont fall away

so im more concerned about following Jesus

 

[valiant]

You still need one verse. That is a gathering IN HEAVEN.( why did you edit that verse?)
You had to edit it for your doctrines sake.

from one end of Heaven to the other indicates the totality of the gathering of those on earth. It says nothing about were the gathering took place.

You bring up Darby? He had a better vantage point.

Actually 2 Roman Catholic priests started it.

Of course you leave out the game changer. Namely ISRAEL BECOMING A NATION. You comb through viewpoints of dead men that never saw Israel restored. They didn't know what they were talking about

.

So Scripture wasn't clear.? Israel is not a nation approved of God. It returned, and is still in rebellion against God. It is a travesty of what Scripture promised. It bears the marks of men's doings.

AMAZINGLY you guys quote dead men that never saw it. Israel restored RESET THE PROPHETIC CLOCK.

A nation trusting in armaments and not obedient to God? You must be joking.

I am appalled you guys leave out major components.

I am appalled that you believe this Israel is of God.

 

[samuel23]

Hey Popeye ,You like to explain what other folks are doing, allow me to describe what you are doing. First of all, you refuse to actually read and accept Matt 24 and Mark 13 because if you did you would be forced to drop pre-trib. In simple words, Jesus described a time of war, famine, disease, shakings, on the earth and he called it the great tribulation. Jesus never said it was the wrath of God. Then Jesus said that after that time He would appear in the SKY and send His angels all over the world to gather the Christians wherever they happen to be. This is really quite easy to recognize if you do not twist scripture. Because Jesus so clearly described his return for the church after the tribulation, there is nothing else left to say, no one can change the words of Jesus Himself so give it up.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

by the way


not sayin youre right or wrong


just thats something that wasnt helping me in anyway

actually caused divison
with nothing edifying about it

as salt
i feel what God wants more from me

is less about debating my understandong of scripture

but stayin in the Word and pointing others to it

 

[valiant]

Already did. Now read rev 15 and get back to me. You will see why he gathered them before hell is released on earth's inhabitants.

The book of Revelation is a series of visions each ending with the second coming.

ch 15 begins a new vision, and it expresses the wrath of God on the world not the great tribulation. Part of it has already taken place.

Easy to see you are not into the word.

Easy to see you are misled lol

 

[valiant]

Oh,really?
So the fact there is a gathering by Jesus with no angels in rev 14 DURING THE GT,doesn't give you a slight pause that you are completely off the map prophetically?

There is no GT in Rev 14.

Pssst,you need a resurrection of dead in Christ PRECEDING those alive. (you left that out)

Pssst. It is almost at the same time as we meet them in the air.

 

[dcontroversal]

Rev 14 has a rapture during the GT.

Take a look at it.

That makes a post trib rapture impossible.

Your doctrine is literally impossible

Believe what you will....the bible supports a post great tribultion pre-wrath ingathering at the 7th Trump.....I was raised in a imminent return church and defended it dogmatically until I actually started studying....there are too many holes in that theory......to teach that view one must deny the verbiage, context, definition of words and the very words of Jesus, Paul, Daniel, John etc.....In the very near future it will become all to obvious concerning which view is correct and which is not!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hey Popeye ,You like to explain what other folks are doing, allow me to describe what you are doing. First of all, you refuse to actually read and accept Matt 24 and Mark 13 because if you did you would be forced to drop pre-trib. In simple words, Jesus described a time of war, famine, disease, shakings, on the earth and he called it the great tribulation. Jesus never said it was the wrath of God. Then Jesus said that after that time He would appear in the SKY and send His angels all over the world to gather the Christians wherever they happen to be. This is really quite easy to recognize if you do not twist scripture. Because Jesus so clearly described his return for the church after the tribulation, there is nothing else left to say, no one can change the words of Jesus Himself so give it up.

I stand amazed at how many REJECT the simple truth that IN HEAVEN, BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD THE WRATH OF GOD IS ANNOUNCED AS HAVING ARRIVED AT THE SOUNDING OF THE 7TH TRUMP.....I also stand amazed that the 4 following things that take place at the sounding of the 7th trump are swept under the table to teach the imminent return farce....the 4 being....

a. Time no more
b. Jesus siezes all earthly kingdoms as Lord
c. Jesus rewards the saints, prophets and thise who fear as Christ
d. Jesus as God pours out the wrath of God dia the bowls

One day with three aspects as time runs out for all....Jesus is Lord, Christ and God!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Believe what you will....the bible supports a post great tribultion pre-wrath ingathering at the 7th Trump.....I was raised in a imminent return church and defended it dogmatically until I actually started studying....there are too many holes in that theory......to teach that view one must deny the verbiage, context, definition of words and the very words of Jesus, Paul, Daniel, John etc.....In the very near future it will become all to obvious concerning which view is correct and which is not!

well

ok PLEASE no one look too much into what im sayin here


but ill give my OPINION and i wonder if dcon agrees


there will be the wars and rumors of wars

no rapture yet

then trib

no rapture yet

then anti christ revealed

no rapture yet

then the abomination of desolation

then rapture


then wrath

?

 

[VCO]

Good day Muzungu256'

Regarding what PlainWord said below:




There couldn't be a past return of Christ and that because it would go against what Jesus said below:

"So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Just like lightning that flashes in the east and can be seen in the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. This is of course in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age where every eye shall see Him and not to be confused with the gathering of the church where only those being gathered will see him.

The reason that PW says that there will be no future great tribulation or antichrist or gathering, is because he has been deceived with the teaching of preterism. However, they are soon going to find out the truth regarding this when they realize the church has been removed from the earth and shortly thereafter when that ruler/anichirst establishes a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple. Hopefully when these things begin to take place, the preterist's will realize that they were wrong and will join the ranks of the great tribulation saints.

Those who want to believe in a spiritual invisible return, NEED to be reminded, that is what the Jehovah Witnesses teach and believe. In fact they have even claimed in the past that HE returned spiritually and indwells the inner room of the Watchtower Publishing House controlling what is published there so that it is EQUAL to the Word of GOD.

BUT I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THE LIGHTNING QUOTE IS REFERRING TO THE SECOND COMING. IT IS THE RAPTURE. THE SECOND COMING IS SO SLOW THAT ALL THE ARMIES OF THE WORLD HAVE TIME TO GATHER IN THE JEZZREAL VALLEY TO MAKE WAR AGAINST THE ONE THEY SEE COMING. PLUS THE SON OF MAN APPEARS TO CALL OUT HIS BRIDE, WHILE THE KING OF KINGS COMES TO MAKE WAR ON THE NATIONS OPPOSING HIM.