The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

I would not want to be....." Did God really say?....."

Never perish is never perish......With EMPHASIS in the original.

No Condemnation is no condemnation. With EMPHASIS in the original.

if we came to them and said if they just do this, They will recieve something that will never perish and never fade away,

and asked for nothing in return, we paid for it in fullo

and the thing perish, they would be all over us for making a false claim.
yet they make God do it.. and it does not phase them

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

THEIR works as justification.

Amen

Instead of falling on their knees, as the tax collector did. showing they had nothing to offer God and required Gods mercy

they boasted of all their works.. and thought God would take those works as payment.

Not!

I never knew you!! where his words.. They did these works not as children of God but as @mailmandan like to put it, as make believers

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Kroogz said:
Acts 16:31. Believe describes something WE do. Aorist tense. One And done.

The Aorist tense does not describe who does the action. And it does not mean "one and done" as it is being presented here.

A. The aorist as a verb form carries some information about the one doing the action and using that it is not difficult to find out who in the sentence is doing the action so I do not know what you mean when you say "Aorist tense does not describe who does the action."

B. Greek is a highly inflected language in which verbs contain information about the one (or ones) who are DOING the action. Verbs ALSO contain information about the TIME of the action and even the TYPE of action, such as whether it is simple or ongoing and repeated.

C. Greek uses the aorist tense to show simple action. An aorist verb simply tells you that something happened, with no indication of how long it took. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video.

D. The Greek PRESENT TENSE can indicate actions that are going on in the present but, what you do not seem to understand, is that very often it describes the the TYPE of action - whether it happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening.

Present Tense
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the TYPE OF ACTION. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video.

E. The Apostle John almost always uses the verb this way especially when describing how people believe and are saved



Using the present to emphasize the is the continual sense that Daniel Wallace says John uses. He used it (According to Wallace to show that faith is a continual relationship.

No matter when a person reads the verse, It is PRESENTLY true. Yesterday, tomorrow and forever. Anyone, everywhere at the present time of their reading can believe.

My dog is sneezing.

The explanation leaves something to be desired even though I think I'm able to grasp the sense of the Present tense being presented.

Again.

He who believes will never perish, and will live forever.

This happens at the point of faith.

Jesus is speaking to not only nicodemus, but everyone who would read his words later

those reading, If they believe, they know they will never perish.

however. If he tells them they will never perish at that point, and they can still peris.. then something is wrong. Jesus lied.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Kroogz said:
Acts 16:31. Believe describes something WE do. Aorist tense. One And done.

The Aorist tense does not describe who does the action. And it does not mean "one and done" as it is being presented here.

A. The aorist as a verb form carries some information about the one doing the action and using that it is not difficult to find out who in the sentence is doing the action so I do not know what you mean when you say "Aorist tense does not describe who does the action."

B. Greek is a highly inflected language in which verbs contain information about the one (or ones) who are DOING the action. Verbs ALSO contain information about the TIME of the action and even the TYPE of action, such as whether it is simple or ongoing and repeated.

C. Greek uses the aorist tense to show simple action. An aorist verb simply tells you that something happened, with no indication of how long it took. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video.

D. The Greek PRESENT TENSE can indicate actions that are going on in the present but, what you do not seem to understand, is that very often it describes the the TYPE of action - whether it happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening.

Present Tense
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.

In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the TYPE OF ACTION. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, “The sun is rising,” you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video.

E. The Apostle John almost always uses the verb this way especially when describing how people believe and are saved



Using the present to emphasize the is the continual sense that Daniel Wallace says John uses. He used it (According to Wallace to show that faith is a continual relationship.


My dog is sneezing.

The explanation leaves something to be desired even though I think I'm able to grasp the sense of the Present tense being presented.

Did Abraham believe it is something we continue in?

Did Paul?

Did Jesus?

What can we do to merit salvation?

I did not say anything about EARNING salvation through meritorious works OF THE LAW. That was the proposition Paul addressed when he confronted the Judaizers. It s a concept I NEVER believed. When I first came to Christ I came under the CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit (though I did not understand exactly what was going on at the time). Since that time I have never imagined I could do anything to MERIT salvation. However, CONTINUING in the Faith, ABIDING in the Vine, REMAINING in Him and in His gospel is not that kind of WORK. Instead, it is RELATIONAL which is why abandoning the faith (1 Timothy 4:1) is such a horrible crime, a intimate betrayal of the one who loved us so much. John used the present tense to show the continual present-tense ongoing nature of our relationship to Him.


There is a point when we first believed. This could be expressed in the AORIST tense since it happened in the past and was complete. However, that initial STEP of faith became a WALK. The Bible says that many under the Old Covenant, like Abraham WALKED WITH GOD. Did he believe a covenant relationship was something we CONTINUE in? Yes, his whole life consisted of altars which marked his ongoing journey. Did Paul and Jesus believe we must walk with the Father. Jesus had a closer walk with the Father than anyone but the way He walked with the Father serves as an example to us and He said:
29 He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” (John 8:29)
Always points to the continual nature of His union with the Father

 

[JimiSurvivor]

and for good measure, we have the seal of the spirit.. Which we can grieve, but we can not lose..

A SEAL would not have denoted something unbreakable and permanent to anyone living during the times when they were in use. We get that idea from experience. For instance, we might think about something being welded to something else. The purpose of such welds was to PREVENT TWO THINGS FROM BECOMING SEPARATED. While this secondary idea might suit our doctrines there are reasons to assume this was not the intended meaning in the Bible. For one, a "seal would not be a good symbol for absolute permanance" because seals were made of FRAGILE materials like WAX and CLAY. They had to be fragile so that if anyone tried to tamper with them the seal would break which would provide evidence of the intended crime. Legal documents that carried a broken seal would not be honored. If a magistrate came across such a document he would likely punish rather than reward the bearer.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Let me add that there is an initial point when salvation begins. What comes afterward is an abiding walk that is not static but dynamic

 

[JimiSurvivor]

He said, as those who looked to the serpent in Moses day, they looked because they believed, and when they did they were saved (healed) they did not have to keep on believing to remain healed. and if they stopped believing the poison of the snakes returned and killed them, they were saved forever once they recieved the gift God gave them

He also said, the moment you are presently believing, you will never perish and you will live forever.

You can not tell a person this, if they can in the future still perish, and your eternal life is conditional on whatever you do or do not do.

It just does nto work.

It is certainly true that anyone who wants to be saved must LOOK TO JESUS to be saved. The cross the snake was hanging on was a type of the cross that saved us. As a type that is as far as it went. You are trying to extend the type further than Jesus intended by proposing that, for it to be a true type it would have to remain standing so the people could CONTINUE to gaze upon it. However, the incident when Moses erected the Serpent on the Pole represents only our initial "looking upon [believing in] Christ" Moses never told the people that looking on the brazen serpent that one time would make them permanently immune to snake venom. In fact, many in Israel died afterward from many other judgments though they all had been delivered from death by the Lambs blood and were "baptized in the cloud of the Holy Spirit." They were judged because they did not continue to believe.

1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness. 6These things took place as EXAMPLES to keep us from craving evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”a 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test Christ,b as some of them did, and were killed by snakes. 10And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel. (1 Corinthians 10:1-8)

 

[PennEd]

A SEAL would not have denoted something unbreakable and permanent to anyone living during the times when they were in use.

Really?

John tells us EXACTLY just who is able to break a seal:


Revelation 5

New King James Version



The Lamb Takes the Scroll
5 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open [a]and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and [b]to loose its seven seals.”
6 And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Worthy Is the Lamb
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and [g]ever!”
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the [h]twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped [i]Him who lives forever and ever.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I did not say anything about EARNING salvation through meritorious works OF THE LAW.

Neither did I. there are many ways to earn a reward. or a prise.

That was the proposition Paul addressed when he confronted the Judaizers. It s a concept I NEVER believed. When I first came to Christ I came under the CONVICTION of the Holy Spirit (though I did not understand exactly what was going on at the time). Since that time I have never imagined I could do anything to MERIT salvation. However, CONTINUING in the Faith, ABIDING in the Vine, REMAINING in Him and in His gospel is not that kind of WORK. Instead, it is RELATIONAL which is why abandoning the faith (1 Timothy 4:1) is such a horrible crime, a intimate betrayal of the one who loved us so much. John used the present tense to show the continual present-tense ongoing nature of our relationship to Him.


There is a point when we first believed. This could be expressed in the AORIST tense since it happened in the past and was complete. However, that initial STEP of faith became a WALK. The Bible says that many under the Old Covenant, like Abraham WALKED WITH GOD. Did he believe a covenant relationship was something we CONTINUE in? Yes, his whole life consisted of altars which marked his ongoing journey. Did Paul and Jesus believe we must walk with the Father. Jesus had a closer walk with the Father than anyone but the way He walked with the Father serves as an example to us and He said:
29 He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” (John 8:29)
Always points to the continual nature of His union with the Father

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved me.

You you believe this? Why would you try to earn Gods mercy by works or merit?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

A SEAL would not have denoted something unbreakable and permanent to anyone living during the times when they were in use. We get that idea from experience. For instance, we might think about something being welded to something else. The purpose of such welds was to PREVENT TWO THINGS FROM BECOMING SEPARATED. While this secondary idea might suit our doctrines there are reasons to assume this was not the intended meaning in the Bible. For one, a "seal would not be a good symbol for absolute permanance" because seals were made of FRAGILE materials like WAX and CLAY. They had to be fragile so that if anyone tried to tamper with them the seal would break which would provide evidence of the intended crime. Legal documents that carried a broken seal would not be honored. If a magistrate came across such a document he would likely punish rather than reward the bearer.

The bible says 3 times I am sealed with the HS UNTIL the day of redemption.

I would say that settles the fact. its enough if it is said 1 time. but three times.. wow

eph 1
eph 4
2 cor 2

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Let me add that there is an initial point when salvation begins. What comes afterward is an abiding walk that is not static but dynamic

That initial point is called justification.

By one offering he has perfected FOREVER those who are bwing sanctified

Sanctification is an ongoing process. and will continue until we die or are resurected.

but the justification is a one time event, you are saved,

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It is certainly true that anyone who wants to be saved must LOOK TO JESUS to be saved. The cross the snake was hanging on was a type of the cross that saved us. As a type that is as far as it went. You are trying to extend the type further than Jesus intended by proposing that, for it to be a true type it would have to remain standing so the people could CONTINUE to gaze upon it. However, the incident when Moses erected the Serpent on the Pole represents only our initial "looking upon [believing in] Christ" Moses never told the people that looking on the brazen serpent that one time would make them permanently immune to snake venom. In fact, many in Israel died afterward from many other judgments though they all had been delivered from death by the Lambs blood and were "baptized in the cloud of the Holy Spirit." They were judged because they did not continue to believe.

1 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness. 6These things took place as EXAMPLES to keep us from craving evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”a 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test Christ,b as some of them did, and were killed by snakes. 10And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel. (1 Corinthians 10:1-8)

so you are unwilling to give it all to christ, you must take a part yourself?

Again, They looked once..

They did not have to continue to believe..

He who believes is not condemned

he who does nto believe is condemned already, the language already does not allow that a person entered a state of not being condemned, and returned to the state of condemnation because they lost faith or stopped believing.

 

[studier]

The Aorist tense does not describe who does the action. And it does not mean "one and done" as it is being presented here.

A. The aorist as a verb form carries some information about the one doing the action and using that it is not difficult to find out who in the sentence is doing the action so I do not know what you mean when you say "Aorist tense does not describe who does the action."

The voice (not the tense) of the verb shows who is doing the action in relation to the subject.

 

[studier]

That initial point is called justification.

By one offering he has perfected FOREVER those who are bwing sanctified

Sanctification is an ongoing process. and will continue until we die or are resurected.

but the justification is a one time event, you are saved,

And then there's also Scripture:

NAS 1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And then there's also Scripture:

NAS 1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

Yes, this is positional sanctification. also called Justification, we have been set apart by God and placed into his family

This is not conditional sanctification also known as spiritual growth, which God is at work in us and will continue until we die.

 

[studier]

Yes, this is positional sanctification. also called Justification, we have been set apart by God and placed into his family

This is not conditional sanctification also known as spiritual growth, which God is at work in us and will continue until we die.

Good that you know there is more than one tense to sanctification.

What is spiritual growth conditioned on?

Now if we could just get you to see that being sanctified is also called being saved so the command in Phil2:12 to accomplish your salvation doesn't sound so strange to you.

 

[Lamar]

Saved as if through fire? This is not some believer who slipped up now and again.....this is a believer who went nowhere, did nothing, did not abide, fell away and never returned.........But is still saved.

Do you have an example of this.?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Good that you know there is more than one tense to sanctification.

What is spiritual growth conditioned on?

Now if we could just get you to see that being sanctified is also called being saved so the command in Phil2:12 to accomplish your salvation doesn't sound so strange to you.

I am more worried about justification. What do I have to do to make sure I will spend eternity in heaven.

What happens AFTER we are saved, justified, positionally sanctified, adopted as sons, Made alive in Christ sealed by the spirit. redeemed, atoned, made right with god made the righteousness of Christ.. is not part of the conversation right now..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Do you have an example of this.?

1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.