The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Karlon]

Replace "lose" with "repudiate" and see if HB 6:4-6 makes sense.

repudiate means to refuse to accept or associate with. shall someone say, "i believe i can repudiate salvation"? if you refuse to accept salvation you'll never have it, if you believe you are saved then decide to repudiate it, you were never saved in the 1st place!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Gospel is a big subject with extensive scope like the parts of Salvation you presented a few posts back.

Heb5:9 is in the context of Jesus learning obedience through all He suffered to completion/perfection. As Heb continues the will quickly get into growthy from infancy to maturity and will rebuke those who are not growing as they should.

The context is much greater than initially receiving Him.

Entrance is faith-obedience, growth is faith-obedience + works until the end.

See your again trying to mix sanctification (works of the flesh) with salvation by grace (beginning in the spirit)

You need to study gal 3.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Thanks for the unclear answer with several side trips...

The things of God are……

will just leave this here

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What a misleading and dishonest question.

"we have to achieve salvation because it is not secure"???

No one here made such a claim.

You have repented and believe salvation is now a one time deal not according to our works. But according to the grace found in Christ?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Oh, there very much is indeed a problem for saying that. A big problem. It actually proves OSAS (the impossibility of apostasy) to be totally false, past, present and future. And gives it absolutely no security. The only reason people who believe in OSAS say “never truly saved”…is because they have to say that…when they discover someone who they knew to be a Christian departed from the faith…instead of believing the truth..they will simply say “well, he/she was just never saved to begin with.”

If they got saved biblically, they were saved, yet when they depart, they were never saved…that makes no sense. The sad reality in OSAS is the one who was said to be saved can depart from the faith and prove he/she was never saved in the first place. To be consistent, no one who believes in OSAS would say anyone is saved.

lol.

and you claim your not trying to merit salvation.

and you expect us to believ this?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I think people condemn the OSAS doctrine too much. Because Jesus told us,only those the Father leads to him can come to Jesus and be Saved.

And Jesus said,of all those whom his Father gives him he will lose none and they shall nevertheless be cast out.

While there is odd opposition to OSAS for whatever reason,Jesus says the same thing in his ministry.

Once we are saved we will never be lost or cast out.

Maybe if we stop angrily charging against some man's doctrine we will maybe see what is its truth behind that doctrine. And that is the teaching of Jesus.

Don't let contempt for a man blind us to Christ.

If you get down to the nitty gritty, they reject OSAS because they reject CALVINISM from whence they are taught the term comes from (It did not by the way)

It’s the old arminian vs calvin debate rearing its ugly head up. So no one can understand what people really believe. They assume they already know as has been shown here multiple times

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you have overcomplicated this. learn 1st John 5:13 & John 10:28, especially 1st John 5:13- ".......THAT YOU MAY KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE......"

And by the knowledge continue to believe.

If we do not know we have it. We have no hope with which to base our security in except for ourselves and how good we are . Or worthy We are.

then we get mad when people tell us we are not worthy, like the pharisees got mad at Jesus

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Beautiful passage. One of my favorites in all of the Bible. The complicated part arises when people start applying the never saved argument to all who they believed as Christians.

John was the first to make the never saved argument if I remember right. Actually I think paul did a few times also.

I know this is difficult when you do not trust in Gods promise. But trust in self

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

&, what's the sense in being saved if you believe you can lose your salvation? do you get saved the 2nd time, 3rd time or the 589th time? too, why would God create & teach salvation without abounding to us a way to know for sure that you have eternal salvation? so sad that some people believe you can lose salvation, doesn't make any sense at all

According to Heb 6, if we could fall away, we can never be renewed.

there is no comming back.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"You're right, he hasn't changed... and that's precisely my concern. He believes he's saved due to the OSAS doctrine, but I'm not here to debate that doctrine. As someone who doesn't subscribe to OSAS, I've had my share of heated discussions on the topic. My focus, however, is on the disconnect between his professed salvation and his unchanged life.

The Bible clearly outlines the expectations for Christian living. Whether one believes in OSAS or not, the outcome is the same: a genuine Christian will demonstrate a changed heart, reflected in their actions. If someone claims to be saved yet continues in sin, regardless of their stance on OSAS, they need to truly repent and commit to following Christ.

Ultimately, it's not about the doctrine; it's about the transformative power of faith. A heart changed by God's grace will inevitably grow in Christlikeness. That's the truth I'm concerned with."

Galatians 5:15-21 WEB — But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one by another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

First off.

no one believes they are saved because of an OSAS doctrine.

they believe in OSAS because they believe in the gospel of Jesus and they believe that God will keep his promise. and those who are saved will never perish, will live forever. are sealed with his spirit. Are kept by him etc etc etc.

those who are truly saved will change. Sadly a lot of people do not even believe in Gods transforming power. They believe he will fail

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"Solely By Faith"???

Can you quote this doctrine?

Remember, quote not surmise.

I am sure you can.

John 3 would be a great place to start.
John 6 is another good one
Eph 1 and 2 would also be great places for you to begin your search to understand salvation is solely by grave alone. But it must be recieved by faith. Not works.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So correct me if im wrong but are you saying you can live in habitual sin and still be sure of heaven as a believer in Christ?

The word says in the 1st letter of john anyone born of God can not live in habitual sin.

Whoever lives in habitual sin has never seen or known God.

so they have never been saved or born again

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Deep in the core of OSAS is the need to ignore the existence of apostasy. Apostasy simply cannot abide in their world.

They simply will not accept the notion that a person being able to commit such a sin.

Apostasy CAN happen, just not like you think it can.

Salvation is eternal. God who is all knowing does not give gifts to people who knows do not have true faith.

When God saves you, he knows everything you did, are doing and will do for your whole life.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Correct..and that’s why they have to misused 1 John 2:19 to say every Christian who departs was never a Christian lol.

But thats what it means

THEY WERE NEVER IF US (part of the church)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That is the logical end to this bogus theology.

Oh boy

so sad in people who trust in self and not God

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

WELL that is the logical end to this theology with some. But not all OSAS believe that way. Some would say that if a confessing believer were living in habitual sin they aren't saved. But the others who believe they can live in habitual sin and still be sure of heaven is simply believing in a different Jesus and they are in serious trouble if thier life reflects that belief.

There is such thing as a licentious gospel (Jude)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Thanks to Adam we are all under sin and God saves whom he will.

Yes,

and what is his will. That every who sees and choses to believe will never perish, but have eternal life. Whoever does nto believe is condemned already

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We are all under sin because we ourselves have sinned. Adam didn’t cause me to sin and he didn’t cause anyone else to sin, as sin is a choice that one makes to transgress God’s law (1 Jn. 3:4). God saves those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9; Mt. 7:21). God has not randomly selected before the beginning of time that Person A will have no choice and go to hell, but Person B has no choice and will go to heaven. That would make Him a respecter of persons and show partiality, which He is not (Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11). Salvation is for all ethnicities, whether Jew or Gentile (Rom. 1:16).

We are all under adam so we are all condemned,

and we can then all be put under christ. Because christ died for all

But he will not force you to take his gift.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I wasn't planning to repond, as this statement holds some truth. However, I'd like to share my thougts, given my experience with numerous conversations on this topic. I strongly disagree with the idea that a genuine believer cannot commit apostasy.

Interestingly, some proponentsm of OSAS emphasize the importance of self-examination, encouraging believers to verify thier faith. While they may not acknowledge the possibility of apostasy, this emphasis on self-examination can indirectly address the apostasy issue.

I ask any OSAS to please correct me if i am wrong.

Sadly,

OSAS is just a word.

just like not everyone who believes Jesus lived and died is saved. Not everyone who believes in osas actually believes in the gospel.

Some believe you can say a sinners prayer and live however you want, your saved anyway. These people are hearers only not doers.

we all need to examine ourselves. As James said,

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I was saved sometime in eternity past when God put my name in the book of life.
I think that this may be the problem. The ones that don’t believe in OSAS are the ones who have never really had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They want to believe they play a part in keeping their salvation because it’s conjured up and not Genuine. If they had the Spirit of Truth in them they’d adhere to the truth.

I want to ask a few questions if you’ll entertain me and answer them honestly. Please don’t think they’re stupid. I will explain.

Why do you love God?

In the song “Amazing Grace” what is the prominent line in the song that lets you KNOW that the writer of the song was saved?

Please answer then and then I will explain. If you blow it off with a remark and don’t answer them then you are not fair in your debate, and I’m out. Answer them and I’ll possibly blow your mind. Thanks

Everyone’s name is in the book of life. Sadly many names will be blotted out.

Jesus died for everyone.