The offer of Salvation is universal, but the application is only : "by Faith".

[HeIsHere]

This is not complicated. Please accept the simple truth that God has given everyone the opportunity to come to Him. Why do you stumble so badly on this?

A sovereign God can decide the terms of salvation and His terms are that a person believes in Christ for salvation.

If He gifts "belief" I think the Bible would only need to be about one page, and the key line would be.

"I God, will bequeath saving belief on some people throughout human history so please wait for it, you may be one of the selected."

 

[oyster67]

We do not choose God.

Do.

The Elect of God has meaning.

Yes. It refers to those who chose Him. No one is born who doesn't have to make a choice about what to do with Jesus. If you haven't chosen to follow Jesus yet, I highly suggest you do it right now.

 

[HeIsHere]

As well, this "act of believing" is not the gift in Ephesians 2:8, "this" refers back to the verbal clause "salvation that comes by grace
through faith."

Correction
As well, this "act of believing" is not the gift in Ephesians 2:8, "this" refers back to the verbal clause "salvation that comes by grace"
through faith.

 

[Dino246]

NET Bible rightly translates v.29 as, "This is the deed (ἔργον) God requires—to believe (ἵνα πιστεύητε - that you should believe) in the one whom He sent.

In response to Everlasting-Grace's comment, "ITS THE WORK OF GOD THAT WE BELIEVE", you asserted this: "Scripture states otherwise."

Are you basing your black-and-white rebuttal on a single translation?

I also find it interesting how John Calvin comments, as an aside only:
"They had spoken of works, Christ reminds them of one work, that is, faith; ... but that faith alone is sufficient because this alone does God require from us, that we believe."

I think that it is very important to see that Jesus used the singular "work" but the question posed was "what works."

Jesus uses their own words, which is typical of how He responded, taking their wrong vantage point to the correct one.

What was the instruction Jesus gave them, very simply, He specifically identifies what “the work of God” is—believing in Him.

I agree with the last sentence. See my post #49, page 3.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Do.


Yes. It refers to those who chose Him. No one is born who doesn't have to make a choice about what to do with Jesus. If you haven't chosen to follow Jesus yet, I highly suggest you do it right now.

That you omit scripture to comport with your sophistry is one thing. When you choose to imply I am not in Christ because I don't concede your error is biblical is weakness,arrogance and pride.

I know Christ and he knows me.
It is understandable sophistry clouds that perception.

I won't waste my time further.
Good luck.

 

[HeIsHere]

In response to Everlasting-Grace's comment, "ITS THE WORK OF GOD THAT WE BELIEVE", you asserted this: "Scripture states otherwise."

Are you basing your black-and-white rebuttal on a single translation?


I agree with the last sentence. See my post #49, page 3.

I think my response if far more nuanced than most of the responses on this thread which can only see "a singular work of belief" as being meritorious and cannot see that work can be non-meritorious.

I think with regards to this statement this translation makes it most clear, but other translations when read in context without preconceptions are also fine.

"ITS THE WORK OF GOD THAT WE BELIEVE", you asserted this: "Scripture states otherwise."

My point is that while yes I agree with @Everlasting-Grace that God works in the life of all unbelievers, there is a synergy in that we must respond to what we hear, God does not do the work for us, He does not believe for us nor infuse belief or faith in us.

Anyway I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me on exactly or perhaps your not, it somewhat unclear.

 

[Dino246]

I think my response if far more nuanced than most of the responses on this thread which can only see "a singular work of belief" as being meritorious and cannot see that work can be non-meritorious.

I think with regards to this statement this translation makes it most clear, but other translations when read in context without preconceptions are also fine.

"ITS THE WORK OF GOD THAT WE BELIEVE", you asserted this: "Scripture states otherwise."

My point is that while yes I agree with @Everlasting-Grace that God works in the life of all unbelievers, there is a synergy in that we must respond to what we hear, God does not do the work for us, He does not believe for us nor infuse belief or faith in us.

Anyway I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me on exactly or perhaps your not, it somewhat unclear.

I understand what you're saying. I think you're incorrect because you aren't considering the context of Jesus' statement. He wasn't explaining the nature of saving faith; rather, He was talking about miraculous works of God done through humans... Himself and the people who asked the question.

 

[oyster67]

That you omit scripture to comport with your sophistry is one thing. When you choose to imply I am not in Christ because I don't concede your error is biblical is weakness,arrogance and pride.

It is love, dear brother.
The Lord does not want you to fail to humbly come and ask Him into your heart. You need to invite Him in. Please do not neglect such great salvation. Humble yourself before the Lord. You were born under sin just like the rest of us.

 

[HeIsHere]

I understand what you're saying. I think you're incorrect because you aren't considering the context of Jesus' statement. He wasn't explaining the nature of saving faith; rather, He was talking about miraculous works of God done through humans... Himself and the people who asked the question.

The miracles set the stage but Jesus had a more important topic, His identity and the miracles which provided the evidence, He was the Bread of Life.

Jesus very clearly replies in verse 29, “What God wants you to do is to believe in the one He sent" that is all He saying.

Jesus pretty much delivered the same message in a variety of ways but His audience wanted to hear something different and therefore many did not hear at all.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬

''In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.''‭

Jesus was the word made flesh.

yeah God was the word and Jesus he is God made flesh

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40‬ ‭

what’s your point ? Gods word made flesh spoke plainly and clearly and said thkngs like this and said believe

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what Gods word made flesh and dwelling among us said its what God said is the point like this God when he was made flesh and dwelt among men said this

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and God made flesh said this

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See I agree Jesus is God made flesh he is the word of God and he spoke and it’s important to know this part

Gods word says this in Christ

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭

and this also important

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because what Jesus said when he was in the flesh among men is the irrevocable word of life and salvstion from God

he is Gods word made flesh what he said should be the word of God for believers is the point not that what he said no longer applies he became flesh to speak the truth of eternal Life

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all Jesus requires of disciples is to accept him and learn from and follow after his teachkngs in the gospel that’s it he’s asking us to hear and trust him and promising us that he will save us if we do

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV

we can hear and believe this which will lead us to do it and trust what it says or we can hear it and reject it’s authority d truth and the thing is we’re rejecting the resulting promise as well all because we don’t want to acknowledge our subjection by our nature to Gods word ehatever he said is life d whatever he warns us not to do is death

this gives us a clear choice of life and death what freedom were given to choose if we want to embrace the gospel d live forever or reject it and embrace the lusts in the world and it’s eventual reward

 

[Bluesproverb]

It is love, dear brother.
The Lord does not want you to fail to humbly come and ask Him into your heart. You need to invite Him in. Please do not neglect such great salvation. Humble yourself before the Lord. You were born under sin just like the rest of us.

Blasphemy of the holy spirit, calling Jesus a liar, isn't love.

Your failure in humility, your proud unapologetic arrogance, and obstinacy, are not love.

You cannot preach to anyone. And God knows those in Christ will never follow the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit heresy you espouse.

I knew a woman whose husband beat her on the regular. As the 'head of the woman's, to correct her bad behavior.
He called that 'christian' behavior love.

Three years later the state's DA called it homicide.
Seems she withstood correction into his last punch.
Love?
Not on your life.

Your doctrine is damnable and false when you live as one who believes themselves still born under sin.

That's not Jesus.

That's the other guy.

Please stop talking to me.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Faith is a work. That’s the mutual consensus in scripture. You can’t accept that because it clashes with your false doctrine.



I feel sympathy in my heart for you like you’re trying so hard, but you’re blind, and possibly have been indoctrinated by a cult. Truly sad.

You’ve attacked me several times, too, but I don’t take it personally.

I sense you’re screaming on the inside for help, but don’t know how to communicate that effectively. It comes out expressed as attacks when someone tries to help you. Who hurt you?

Anyway, I never shy away from those who need help so if you ever need anything just let me know. Thoughts and prayers for you. Peace.

Here is the difference between you and me

I trust in God for salvation and his promise based on his work

You are trusting in self for your salvation and your work.

I am not trying hard at all. Scripture is quite clear. I am just tryign to help you and others.

Faith is not a work. Where your faith is placed is where you will work.

Your faith is in self. So your self focused

My faith is in Gods work. So I am god focused.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I think my response if far more nuanced than most of the responses on this thread which can only see "a singular work of belief" as being meritorious and cannot see that work can be non-meritorious.

I think with regards to this statement this translation makes it most clear, but other translations when read in context without preconceptions are also fine.

"ITS THE WORK OF GOD THAT WE BELIEVE", you asserted this: "Scripture states otherwise."

My point is that while yes I agree with @Everlasting-Grace that God works in the life of all unbelievers, there is a synergy in that we must respond to what we hear, God does not do the work for us, He does not believe for us nor infuse belief or faith in us.

Anyway I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me on exactly or perhaps your not, it somewhat unclear.

Us responding is not a work though (As I see it)

A work by definition is something one does to earn a wage or reward.

We do not recieve to earn, we can;t earn. God reaches out to us, we just grab his hand while he pulls us to safety.

thats not work.

Thats why we can not boast. Because it is Gods work in pulling us out. Not our work of helping God or pulling ourselves out.

 

[Runningman]

Here is the difference between you and me

I trust in God for salvation and his promise based on his work

You are trusting in self for your salvation and your work.

I am not trying hard at all. Scripture is quite clear. I am just tryign to help you and others.

Faith is not a work. Where your faith is placed is where you will work.

Your faith is in self. So your self focused

My faith is in Gods work. So I am god focused.

Salvation is God’s work. We believe the same thing. You aren’t saved by your faith, you’re saved by God because of your faith. His response to faith placed in the correct things is salvation.

By faith you access God’s grace and salvation. Salvation is not our works, but based on the multiple passages I’ve showed you faith is a work in the sense it requires mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result. That’s in perfect harmony with the whole body of scriptures.

God wouldn’t command us to have faith if He could give us all faith. I hope that helps clear it up for you.

If you still disagree then no problem. You don’t need to keep arguing about it though. You have nothing to prove at this point.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Here is the difference between you and me

I trust in God for salvation and his promise based on his work

You are trusting in self for your salvation and your work.

I am not trying hard at all. Scripture is quite clear. I am just tryign to help you and others.

Faith is not a work. Where your faith is placed is where you will work.

Your faith is in self. So your self focused

My faith is in Gods work. So I am god focused.

They're blaspheming God's Holy Spirit . As are others here.

You can't help that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your doctrine is damnable and false when you live as one who believes themselves still born under sin.

I would like to comment on this harsh and untrue statement:

1. You -- Bluesproverb -- are a rank newbie on this forum.

2. Oyster has been around for a long time and is a good Christian brother.

3. Therefore you need to watch what you say. Newbies should not be presumptuous.

4. Oyster has always presented sound doctrine. Therefore his doctrine is definitely not "damnable".

5. Oyster is correct in saying that the "elect" are those who have chosen Christ as their Savior.

6. Election and predestination apply to believers, not to the unsaved. God does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation. But He does elect all believers for perfection and glorification.

7. Therefore the "gospel according to TULIP" is false.

 

[Runningman]

They're blaspheming God's Holy Spirit . As are others here.

You can't help that.

The accuser returns to fear monger and lie.

I was beginning to actually think you’re a good Christian and maybe you are most of the time, but your behavior is disgusting. You also don’t seem to understand what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Very reckless

You’ve spread enough hate today. I can see you would love nothing more than to see your debate opponents unforgiven by God. How petty. Smh.

 

[Bluesproverb]

I would like to comment on this harsh and untrue statement:

1. You -- Bluesproverb -- are a rank newbie on this forum.

2. Oyster has been around for a long time and is a good Christian brother.

3. Therefore you need to watch what you say. Newbies should not be presumptuous.

4. Oyster has always presented sound doctrine. Therefore his doctrine is definitely not "damnable".

5. Oyster is correct in saying that the "elect" are those who have chosen Christ as their Savior.

6. Election and predestination apply to believers, not to the unsaved. God does not elect some for salvation and others for damnation. But He does elect all believers for perfection and glorification.

7. Therefore the "gospel according to TULIP" is false.

You're addressing the wrong person. I am not a Calvinist.

And you're out of line apologizing for someone who has spoken,as you admit , for themselves and their doctrine for years.

Don't whine because a newbie isn't going to allow a long tolerated heretic to tell her she's not a Christian because she does not respect his false doctrine that labels Jesus a liar and is blasphemy of the holy spirit.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You're addressing the wrong person. I am not a Calvinist.

Then why did you call Oyster's doctrine "damnable"? What exactly was damnable about his comments? And it is not "whining" when you are being corrected. And Oyster is not a woman either.

 

[Dino246]

The miracles set the stage but Jesus had a more important topic, His identity and the miracles which provided the evidence, He was the Bread of Life.

Jesus very clearly replies in verse 29, “What God wants you to do is to believe in the one He sent" that is all He saying.

With respect, again I think you are incorrect... according to context.

God does indeed want us to believe in the One Whom He has sent; that's not the issue. The issue is that people think that doing so is "work". The "work(s) of God", in context, are miracles. The miracle that God wants to happen is people believing in Jesus.