The Need For A Church Council

[hornetguy]

Have you ever considered that Mary was faithful to Christ on His Cross, when almost all His Apostles had fled?

What difference would that make? She was his mother, and was there with other women. I fail to see the significance as to whether she is "divine" or not.

 

[TheLearner]

That scripture points to the fact that all believers are in the body of Christ... it says nothing about any kind of governing body over all believers.... the only one over the church is Christ.

I understand it as being impiled in "unity of faith" .

Only one major foundation of the Church is laid, implies only one Church.

 

[TheLearner]

Mary did not just conceive the physical part of Jesus. In fact Jesus was both man and divine, man and God and that nature cannot be separated into one or the other. The angel answered Mary in the Gospel of Luke, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Nestorianism is a heresy from the fourth century that wrongly proclaimed the doctrine that there were two separate persons, one human and one divine, in the incarnate Christ.

Mary is truly the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God.

What primary sources on Nestorianism do you have brother, freiend?

 

[TheLearner]

Flesh begets flesh, spirit begets spirit. So is Mary divine then?

Last I checked spirits do not beget. Am I wrong?

 

[TheLearner]

And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

Jesus was both God and human at the very beginning of His conception. The Word was made flesh. You cannot separate His divine nature from His human nature. His mother is Mary and He is God. Was it a miracle brought about by God, You bet it was. All things are possible with God.

Did Jesus have one will or two wills?

 

[TheLearner]

Was Jesus "human" before He was incarnate?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.

No

 

[TheLearner]

I suppose you could accurately say that Mary was the physical mother of the incarnate God... but to try to say that Mary is the "mother of God" is blasphemy, IMHO.
Mary was a special woman who was chosen by God to be the vessel to give birth to Jesus. That does not grant her "divine" status.

Who gives her divine status brother, friend?

 

[TheLearner]

Elizabeth, speaking through the Holy Ghost, calls Mary the Mother of the Lord. "But why am I so favored, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luk 1:43). Elizabeth considers being visited by the Mother of God to be a Great Privilege.

Lord here is Kyrios in Greek and Adonai in Hebrew. It was how the Jews refer to God. The same as when the Bible says, Jesus is Lord, it is saying, He is God.

Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore is the Mother of Jesus Christ our God.

My mother gave birth to Xavier. She did not create my soul, God alone did that. But she is still the mother of my whole person. And the same is true of Mary. Mary is the Mother of the One Person, Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God.

God Bless.

"
Verse 43
The mother of my Lord (η μητηρ του Κυριου μου). See Psalms 110:1. Only by the help of the Holy Spirit could Elisabeth know that Mary was to be the mother of the Messiah."
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/luke-1.html

qoutes
Rejoice, highly favored one – What an honor to be chosen to be the mother of the Messiah!
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/cbb/luke-1.html

Verse 43
And whence is this to me,..... How comes it to pass, that such notice is taken of me, such an honour is done me; that besides being favoured with a child, who shall be great,

that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Elisabeth was far from envying the superior honour conferred on her kinswoman, who was both meaner and younger than she; that she esteems it a wonderful favour, that she should be indulged with a visit from her, who had already conceived the Messiah: and in due time would be the mother of him, as man; who, in his divine nature, is Lord of all angels, and men, and every creature; and in an especial manner was her Lord, and the Lord of all the saints; by his Father's gift from eternity, by his own purchase in time, and by the power of his grace on each of their souls. Thus the virgin is said to be the mother of our Lord, and so may be called the mother of God; because she was parent of that child, which was in union with him, who is truly Lord and God: Just in such sense as the Lord of life and glory is said to be crucified, and God is said to purchase the church with his own blood, 1 Corinthians 2:8
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/geb/luke-1.html

43. The mother of my Lord] The aged Elisabeth acknowledges that the young maiden is greater and more highly favoured than she, because she is ’the mother of my Lord,’ i.e. of the Messiah.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/dcb/luke-1.html

The mother of my Lord. A proof that Christ was truly God, and the blessed Virgin Mary truly the mother of God. (Witham) --- Elizabeth was a just and blessed woman; yet the excellency of the mother of God does so far surpass that of Elizabeth, and of every other woman, as the great luminary outshines the smaller stars. (St. Jerome pr'e6f. in Sophon.)
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/hcc/luke-1.html

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? But the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:41 (NAS)
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Luke 1:41) raised Elisabeth's thoughts yet higher. Not only did she bless the mother of the coming Messiah, but the Spirit opened her eyes to see who that coming Messiah really was. Very vague indeed was the conception of the coming Messiah in Israel.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/tpc/luke-1.html

43. ] The word κυρίου , as applied to the unborn babe, can no otherwise be explained than as uttered in the spirit of prophecy, and expressing the divine nature of our Lord: see especially Psalms 110:1 (NAS)
1 A Psalm of David.
The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: bold; cursor: pointer; font-family: Lato, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Psalms 110:1 , from which Bleek thinks the expression is adopted.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/hac/luke-1.html

Luke 1:43 . Ἡ μήτηρ , the Mother ) This new appellation addressed to her, could not but move in her inmost soul the Virgin mother. The Mother , saith she, of my Lord ; she does not, however, call her, My Lady [ i.e. as if she had lordship, like Christ, over all]. τοῦ Κυρίου μου , of my Lord ) Comp. ch. Luke 20:42 ; John 20:28 .
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/jab/luke-1.html

 

[TheLearner]

43 . the mother of my Lord ] The words shew a remarkable degree of divine illumination in the mind of Elizabeth. See John 20:28 , John 13:13 . Yet she does not address Mary as Domina , but as ‘mater Domini’ (Bengel); and such expressions as Theotokos and ‘Mother of God’ are unknown to Scripture.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/cgt/luke-1.html

Luke 1:43, Whence is this to me? Utterance of humility.

The mother of my Lord, i.e., the Messiah. This recognition was through inspiration. The designation ‘mother of God,’ which came into general use in the fifth century, is not found in the Bible.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/scn/luke-1.html

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/gsc/luke-1.html

 

[TheLearner]

Note Arain translations translates Lord as Master

 

[TheLearner]

start at #63

 

[TheLearner]

I forgot what I was going to write.

 

[hornetguy]

Who gives her divine status brother, friend?

I don't believe she HAS divine status... God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are divine... that's all.

 

[TheLearner]

I don't believe she HAS divine status... God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are divine... that's all.

I agree, She is only human. Hebrews 12 indicates that those in Heaven may be able to see us. "Clould of Witnesses" Another interpretation of the same text is the Witnesses is the testimonies of those in Hebrews 11. I do not remember which interpretation is in the Early Church Fathers.

 

[TheLearner]

"But, not to detain the reader any longer, I will keep to the division given above and taking his propositions one by one will rely chiefly on the evidence of Scripture to refute them, for fear he may chatter and complain that he was overcome by rhetorical skill rather than by force of truth. If I succeed in this and with the aid of a cloud of witnesses from both Testaments prove too strong for him, I will then accept his challenge, and adduce illustrations from secular literature. I will show that even among philosophers and distinguished statesmen, the virtuous are wont to be preferred by all to the voluptuous, that is to say men like Pythagoras, Plato and Aristides, to Aristippus, Epicurus and Alcibiades. I entreat virgins of both sexes and all such as are continent, the married also and the twice married, to assist my efforts with their prayers. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/30091.htm

"
Hebrews 12:1
3. Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore (he says) we also being compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. In many places the Scripture derives its consolation in evils from corresponding things. As when the prophet says, From burning heat, and from storm, and rain. Isaiah 4:6 This at least he says here also, that the memory of those holy men, reestablishes and recovers the soul which had been weighed down by woes, as a cloud does him who is burnt by the too hot rays [of the sun.]

And he did not say, lifted on high above us, but, compassing us about, which was more than the other; so that we are in greater security.

What sort of cloud? A load of witnesses. With good reason he calls not those in the New [Testament] only, but those in the Old also, witnesses [or martyrs]. For they also were witnesses to the greatness of God, as for instance, the Three Children, those with Elijah, all the prophets."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240228.htm

Not about Hebrews 12:1 but relates to above quotes:

"27. My mercy will I keep for Him for ever: and my Testament faithful with Him Psalm 88:28. On His account, the Testament is faithful: in Him the Testament is mediated: He is the Sealer, the Mediator of the Testament, the Surety of the Testament, the Witness of the Testament, the Heritage of the Testament, the Coheir of the Testament. "
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801089.htm

Catholic Sites:

"The saints “a cloud of witnesses over our head”, showing us life of Christian perfection is possible. "
http://www.lngplants.com/Saint_of_the_DayOctober07.html

"
Hebrews 12:1--And therefore we also having so great a *cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us: (Hebrews 11 speaks of the Old Testament heroes..Moses, Abraham, Rahab, peace be upon them...)
*Implying they are now in heaven? "
https://orthodoxcatholic.webs.com/saints.html

Catholic Apologetists use Hebrews 12 to claim that those in Heaven see us.

 

[Avery]

Sister Avery, my apologies. Yes, Mother Mary was "Full of Grace", "Blessed among women" (as Gabriel and Elizabeth said, Luk 1:28 and 1:42), and Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe Mary is the Greatest Saint in Heaven, Inferior to God alone. We do not pray to Mary, but we ask Mary to pray for us, just as other Christians ask Pastors etc to pray for them. We believe the principle mentioned by St. James that "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." (James 5:16 b). Hence we say, "Holy Mother of God, pray for us". Hope that clarifies.

Edit: Some of these issues were discussed in the Third Ecumenical Council, of Ephesus, in 431 A.D. The dispute began when Nestorius denied Mary was the Mother of God, just as Arius had earlier denied Christ was God. The Council declared Mary was truly the Mother of God, as Jesus was truly God.

God Bless.

No worries.

Mary is not a saint in heaven. You do pray to Mary if you are asking her to pray for you. Otherwise, are you holding a séance and speaking to the dead? Where in scripture are we told to pray to a person who has gone on and left this earth? I appreciate your obvious dedication to God, but I totally disagree with your views on Mary other than what scripture actually says regarding her.

Paul declares believers in Christ holy, so Mary is no more holy than the rest of us.

 

[hornetguy]

Only one major foundation of the Church is laid, implies only one Church.

I agree...
Which begs the question..... to which "church" was Paul referring at the beginning of nearly all of his letters?

1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through human agency, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brothers who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:

1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus,
To all the [a]saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, [b]including the overseers and deacons:

2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, [b]saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

 

[TheLearner]

No worries.

Mary is not a saint in heaven. You do pray to Mary if you are asking her to pray for you. Otherwise, are you holding a séance and speaking to the dead? Where in scripture are we told to pray to a person who has gone on and left this earth? I appreciate your obvious dedication to God, but I totally disagree with your views on Mary other than what scripture actually says regarding her.

Paul declares believers in Christ holy, so Mary is no more holy than the rest of us.

A way that may work is, The Holy Spirit intercedes, prays for us in Romans 8 along with Jesus. God can bring someone to the mind of believers, we need only say amen and the Spirit fills in the gaps. We know that angels visit heaven daily from Job. One can make a side trip to speak to our loved ones. To my knowledge those in heaven can not see us on earth, some have used Hebrews 12:1 to say they can see us on earth. These are only unproven opinions.

 

[TheLearner]

I agree...
Which begs the question..... to which "church" was Paul referring at the beginning of nearly all of his letters?

1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through human agency, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brothers who are with me,
To the churches of Galatia:

1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus,
To all the [a]saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, [b]including the overseers and deacons:

2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, [b]saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

As you know there is the Universal Church and local Churches.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here