The Need For A Church Council

hornetguy · Apr 27, 2022

I suppose you could accurately say that Mary was the physical mother of the incarnate God... but to try to say that Mary is the "mother of God" is blasphemy, IMHO.
Mary was a special woman who was chosen by God to be the vessel to give birth to Jesus. That does not grant her "divine" status.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Apr 27, 2022

hornetguy said:

Elizabeth, speaking through the Holy Ghost, calls Mary the Mother of the Lord. "But why am I so favored, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luk 1:43). Elizabeth considers being visited by the Mother of God to be a Great Privilege.

Lord here is Kyrios in Greek and Adonai in Hebrew. It was how the Jews refer to God. The same as when the Bible says, Jesus is Lord, it is saying, He is God.

Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore is the Mother of Jesus Christ our God.

My mother gave birth to Xavier. She did not create my soul, God alone did that. But she is still the mother of my whole person. And the same is true of Mary. Mary is the Mother of the One Person, Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God.

God Bless.

Avery · Apr 27, 2022

pottersclay said:

I cannot help you. Your comprehension radar is malfunctioning. You appear to have a Bible. I suggest you look up how the word conform is used in that book. If you still think it is a bad word, kindly just move on as if even that does not help you out, there is no used in pursuing it further.

It's not a salvic issue but it does help our understanding of our walk as believers. It is Christ we conform to; not other believers and for some reason, you appear to be stuck on thinking otherwise.

Seriously? You think that is what conformity to Christ might mean? Perhaps read my post 37 again in which I tried to explain your misapplication to you.

over 'n out

Avery · Apr 27, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

And who is Jesus' father?

arthurfleminger · Apr 27, 2022

hornetguy said:

Sorry, but you are wrong.. I suggest you familiarize yourself with Scripture and Gabriel's visit to Mary, Luke Cha 1.
God sends his angel to Mary to announce to her that she will be the mother of His Son, Jesus..

Then the angel told her, “Stop being afraid, Mary, because you have found favor with God. 31 Listen! You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will never end.”

34 Mary asked the angel, “How can this happen, since I have not had relations with a man?”

35 The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will surround you. , the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God. 36 And listen! Elizabeth, your relative, has herself conceived a son in her old age, this woman who was rumored to be barren is in her sixth month. 37 Nothing is impossible with respect to any of God’s promises.”

So, if you read the Scripture, literally and without trying to twist it around to get it to mean what you want it to mean, you'll see that Mary will become a mother, the mother of Jesus,, Son of the Most High.

Furthermore, it's an insult to refer to anyone's mother as merely a vessel. Was your mother merely a vessel, I don't think so and neither was Jesus' mother merely a vessel.

Anyway, God made it clear, through the angel Gabriel, that Mary was to be the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God.
But, if you don't really believe the Gospel of luke, God's word, you don't have to. And the Word was made Fl,esh!!!!!!!!!

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Apr 27, 2022

Hi Brother Avery.

Jesus' Actual Father is of course His Eternal Father, God the Father. Jesus' Adoptive Father was St. Joseph, through whom His lineage goes back to King David. Mother Mary also was most likely of the tribe of David just like St. Joseph, as most Israelites married within their own tribe. Some Church Fathers say the Gospel of Luke gives the lineage of Mary. The Gospel of Matthew of course traces the human lineage of Christ to David and Abraham through Joseph. St. Joseph of course was not the literal father of Jesus Christ, because of the Virgin Birth, but loved Him with a Father's Heart.

Hence, he is called father in a metaphorical sense in Luk 2:48-50:

"48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

49“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” f 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them." (Luk 2:48-50)

God Bless.

Avery · Apr 27, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

The angel tells her she is highly favored among women. That's it that's all. She was a vessel. Jesus was there at creation. He came in the flesh to show us the Father. You are swatting at the air regarding these comments as no one has insulted Mary or said she was not special or chosen.

She is not to be prayed to however nor worshipped. That would basically make her an idol as we are to worship God alone. Thou shalt have not other gods before me. Don't wear out that exclamation mark key. You might actually need it one day.

arthurfleminger · Apr 27, 2022

Avery said:

Again I ask, who in the world would consider a mother to be merely a vessel? Was your mother merely a vessel for you? Jesus hears/sees you insulting His mother.

Avery · Apr 27, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

Well that's sister Avery. As my avatar shows.

No offense though. Thanks I am aware of Joseph's lineage and Mary's
It is the Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary as the Bible clearly tells us.

The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35

We do not pray to Mary.

Avery · Apr 27, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

God would. He could have chosen someone else but Mary had the correct lineage for one thing. What is your offence exactly? Jesus is not insulted but He might be wondering why you are making a case for swatting at the air. Don't hide behind Jesus. You do not speak for Him. YOU are the one who is insulted so just leave it there.

My mother did not birth a god.

hornetguy · Apr 27, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

Elizabeth, speaking through the Holy Ghost, calls Mary the Mother of the Lord. "But why am I so favored, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luk 1:43). Elizabeth considers being visited by the Mother of God to be a Great Privilege.

Lord here is Kyrios in Greek and Adonai in Hebrew. It was how the Jews refer to God. The same as when the Bible says, Jesus is Lord, it is saying, He is God.

Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore is the Mother of Jesus Christ our God.

My mother gave birth to Xavier. She did not create my soul, God alone did that. But she is still the mother of my whole person. And the same is true of Mary. Mary is the Mother of the One Person, Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is God.

God Bless.

I don't think that anything I said disagrees with that.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Apr 27, 2022

Sister Avery, my apologies. Yes, Mother Mary was "Full of Grace", "Blessed among women" (as Gabriel and Elizabeth said, Luk 1:28 and 1:42), and Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe Mary is the Greatest Saint in Heaven, Inferior to God alone. We do not pray to Mary, but we ask Mary to pray for us, just as other Christians ask Pastors etc to pray for them. We believe the principle mentioned by St. James that "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." (James 5:16 b). Hence we say, "Holy Mother of God, pray for us". Hope that clarifies.

Edit: Some of these issues were discussed in the Third Ecumenical Council, of Ephesus, in 431 A.D. The dispute began when Nestorius denied Mary was the Mother of God, just as Arius had earlier denied Christ was God. The Council declared Mary was truly the Mother of God, as Jesus was truly God.

God Bless.

hornetguy · Apr 27, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

Do you want to argue semantics? You simply want to argue?
Do you pray to Mary? Do you see her as God? What is Mary to you?

hornetguy · Apr 27, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

And that is completely unscriptural.
The only way to "talk" to Mary would be to pray to her.
The only intercession we have to God is to pray through Jesus, or to have the Holy Spirit pray for us, using words we don't have....
Anything else is unscriptural...

arthurfleminger · Apr 27, 2022

hornetguy said:

Actually, I absolutely agree that Mary is not God and is not to be worshipped. No question there.

Is Mary due honor from me? Well, God the Father honored Mary by choosing her to be the mother of Jesus, we know that Jesus honored Mary (honor thy father and thy mother), and we know that the Holy Spirit honored Mary by conceiving Jesus with her. So, it's obvious that God views Mary as being worthy of His honor and attuning my will to God's, so do I.

Did the early Apolostic Church Christians pray to Mary? Why yes the did, going back to the first century. There is ample proof that Christians of the early Church prayed to Mary for Jesus' intercession. These Christians were only a generation away from the Apostles.

A very significant fresco found in the catacombs of St. Agnes depicts Mary situated between St. Peter and St. Paul with her arms outstretched to both. This fresco reflects, in the language of Christian frescoes, the earliest symbol of Mary as "Mother of the Church." Whenever Peter and Paul are shown together, it is symbolic of the one Church of Christ, a Church of authority and evangelization, a Church for both Jew and Gentile. Mary's prominent position between Peter and Paul illustrates the recognition by the Apostolic Church of the maternal centrality of the Savior's Mother in his young Church.

It is also clear from the number of representations of the Blessed Virgin and their locations in the catacombs that the Mother of Jesus was also recognized for her maternal intercession of protection and defense. Her image was present on tombs, as well as on the large central vaults of the catacombs. Clearly, the early Christians dwelling in the catacombs prayed to Mary as intercessor to her Son for special protection and for motherly assistance. As early as the first century to the first half of the second century, Mary's role as Spiritual Mother was recognized and her protective intercession was invoked. (2)

hornetguy · Apr 27, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

All of this is Roman Catholic doctrine, not Biblical doctrine. It's all created by man...
Did ANY of the writers of the NT mention using Mary as any kind of intercessor in prayer? No.
Any and all mention of that being a practice began with the creation/inception of the Roman Catholic church, and is un-scriptural.

I also hold Mary in deep respect, because she was chosen to give birth to Jesus.... but that is as far as it goes.

The whole concept of "Saint" Peter and "Saint" Paul is simply created Catholic church doctrine.

We are ALL saints, in Christ. If we are going to talk about St. Peter, we should also talk about St. Ricardo, or St. Freddy, or St. Geraldine...

and, to show what Jesus himself thought about revering his mother...

46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 [[an]Someone said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to You.”] 48 But [ao]Jesus replied to the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” 49 And extending His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold: My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother, and sister, and mother.”

SomeDisciple · Apr 27, 2022

The Mary thing is different from person to person- some Catholics consider her a "perpetual virgin", and others consider her part of the Godhead somehow.
You never know if someone who talks to Mary is a Mary worshipper... but I guess nobody is worried about idolatry at funerals when people talk to their dead family members.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · Apr 27, 2022

Nobody considers Mary to be God. She is God's Creature, and God's Mother because He took on flesh.

Have you ever considered that Mary was faithful to Christ on His Cross, when almost all His Apostles had fled?

In Revelation, God promises a Great Crown in Heaven for those who are faithful unto death.

Rev 2:10 "Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life."

In Rev 12, He shows us He honored His own Mother with such a Crown in Heaven.

"1And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head ... 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.a And her child was caught up to God and to His throne." The Son is obviously Jesus, Who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. Hence, the Woman, His Mother, is obviously Mary. God promised a Reward to those who faithfully serve Him until death. Mary was faithful when the Apostles were not.

God Bless.

pottersclay · Apr 27, 2022

Avery said:

I cannot help you. Your comprehension radar is malfunctioning. You appear to have a Bible. I suggest you look up how the word conform is used in that book. If you still think it is a bad word, kindly just move on as if even that does not help you out, there is no used in pursuing it further.

It's not a salvic issue but it does help our understanding of our walk as believers. It is Christ we conform to; not other believers and for some reason, you appear to be stuck on thinking otherwise.

Seriously? You think that is what conformity to Christ might mean? Perhaps read my post 37 again in which I tried to explain your misapplication to you.

over 'n out

Will do my friend end of discussion. I did my part.

Pilgrimshope · Apr 27, 2022

CS1 said:

isn’t that part of individual church structure already ? To keep order among the brethren in each area who gather ? Most all Of the biblical structure of the church is long gone

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41-47‬ ‭

I don’t know if any churches like that honestly and sadly

the biblical church we read about was a large dispersed group of believers like that who loves each other and we’re being persecuted by the Jews and Romans while they were writing the epistles and blessed gospel accounts.

“And Saul ( later becomes Paul ) was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judæa and Samaria, except the apostles.

…Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:1, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:1‬ ‭

Saul is then converted to Christianity and becomes Paul on his way to Damascus after this. Paul joined the already growing church and his efforts being a Roman citizen helped it grow among the gentile peoples all
Around the regions.

the church needs to remember what the church is in scripture , a family who cares for each other even in times of peril and strife. That is Christianity’s strength in the world , thier unity
and bond of love , peace and the joy of hope in Jesus Christ for what comes after the shadows of death catch up to us

The Need For A Church Council

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