The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine

[Dave-L]

Using that as an argument against millennialism is a foolish argument. I have never heard a millennealist argue that Christ's kingdom ended at the end of the thousand years. Pre-mils, or at least dispensationalists, I've heard believe that after the thousand years this earth is burnt with fervent heat with the kingdom continuing forever with the new heaven and the new earth.

You have also basically admitted that your own eschatology depends on the apostles being wrong in this passage.

Acts 1
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus encouraged them in this belief which you reject.

I will take the side of the apostles and Christ that the restoration of the kingdom to Israel is a true thing to come.

The earliest writings that deal with this topic affirm an actual kingdom, with the prophets coming to an actual Jerusalem, etc. Eusebius, an amillennialist if I recall correctly, admitted that Papias, who knew St. John took it that way, the way you would describe as chiliastic. Justin Martyr wrote that Christians who were rightly minded agreed with him, and described the coming literal kingdom, but said there were some who disagreed. We do not know if those who disagreed were amil or had a completely different eschatology. But evidence for amil comes later. After a few hundred years, the strange idea arose that allegorical versus literal as the same as spiritual versus literal. Paul did not write about the 'spirit of the law'. He wrote about the Spirit and he wrote about the law. Augustine, probably borrowing from Ambrose, had this idea that literal interpretations were unspiritual or less spiritual. He was influential, and amil was popularize.

Someone got onto amil on your cessationist thread recently, but one can be non-cessationist and be amil. Augustine wrote a few cessationist comments early on, but he wrote of many miracles he witnessed toward the end of his life, documenting numerous healings in his days. (The number of anal fistulas that people suffered with and therefore had to be healed from was disturbing, but I saw a documentary that mentioned some of the Romans unsanitary practices, dipping communal sponges in grey water and such, so the need for that type of healing was quite important.) Augustine wanted people to come forward and testify of the many healings that had taken place.

You also confuse the kingdom of God with the specific topic of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. The kingdom of God is the rule and reign of God, and includes and is related to such things as righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost, healing, miracles, raising the dead, and the preaching of repentance. Jesus sent the twelve with instructions to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils. He told them to preach 'Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.' They demonstrated the proximity of the kingdom of God through miracles.

You actually oppose aspects of the kingdom of God on the earth in this age. Jesus said, "If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you..." Jesus also called casting out demons a miracle. You are against the idea of the saints working miracles. So you are against one of the manifestations of the kingdom of God in this age.

The kingdom





And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.

And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.



“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned

Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,

Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of amillennialism (Clement of

Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's

explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive

explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]



Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.



Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Council_of_Ephesus&oldid=921743450"

[/QUOTE]
The restoration of Israel (believers) is the resurrection on the last day where we remain in the New Heavens and Earth forever.

 

[Chris1975]

The 1000 years is not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed.

Are you actually arguing just to stir things up?

 

[Dave-L]

I guess you also believe God lied through the Angel Gabriel when he told Mary that her Son would rule on the throne of King David.

Tell me. When did Jesus ever sit on David's Throne?

Now......

 

[Dave-L]

So what is your position, do not believe in reve 20, mean you do not believe in binle?

It's an overview of the New Covenant era including the Judgement and its effects.

 

[Dave-L]

This is simply LAUGHABLE. Since the revelation of the Millennium was given to Christ by God, and Christ gave that revelation to John as recorded in the book of Revelation (chapter 20), it is clear that this OP is an attack on Bible truth, not the ideas or teachings of the Pharisees. Actually Amillennialism is heresy.

Could you be wrong in your interpretation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now......

Guess this explains it

Davids throne is in jerusalem

Jesus now sits on His throne

 

[Dave-L]

Guess this explains it

Davids throne is in jerusalem

Jesus now sits on His throne

Heavenly Jerusalem above.

 

[Dave-L]

Are you actually arguing just to stir things up?

This is basic historic Christianity. For your benefit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heavenly Jerusalem above.

David was never promised his son would sit on that throne

the heavenly jerusalem has yet to be created,

the nations do not come to jerusalem to worship the king

and they are not punished for failing to do so

Zech 14
The Day of the Lord
14 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your [a]spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses [b]rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with [c]You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The [d]lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward [e]the eastern sea
And half of them toward [f]the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. [g]Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall [h]dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
The Nations Worship the King
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the [i]punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, [j]every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

 

[Dave-L]

David was never promised his son would sit on that throne

the heavenly jerusalem has yet to be created,

the nations do not come to jerusalem to worship the king

and they are not punished for failing to do so

Zech 14
The Day of the Lord
14 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your [a]spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses [b]rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with [c]You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The [d]lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward [e]the eastern sea
And half of them toward [f]the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. [g]Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall [h]dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
The Nations Worship the King
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the [i]punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, [j]every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

You cannot understand the OT apart from the New. So until you learn about the OT from that perspective you remain blinded.
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.” 2 Corinthians 3:14–16 (KJV 1900)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You cannot understand the OT apart from the New. So until you learn about the OT from that perspective you remain blinded.
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.” 2 Corinthians 3:14–16 (KJV 1900)

So as with every other thing you say, you do not want to discuss what the word actually says you just want to argue

good day sir.

when you want to discuss the passages in question, let me know.

 

[Dave-L]

So as with every other thing you say, you do not want to discuss what the word actually says you just want to argue

good day sir.

when you want to discuss the passages in question, let me know.

You cannot understand the OT without giving the NT priority.

 

[Adstar]

But in time, the church condemned it as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed


We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

This portion of scripture in No way discredits the Millennium.. As a Millennial Kingdom believer i believe Jesus shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

His Kingdom started on the Day of Pentecost when the apostles first received the Holy Spirit and that Kingdom will never end.. But it does go through a number of forms.. First it is a spiritual kingdom being built up over the centuries then a physical kingdom on earth for 1000 years and then after the final resurrection into eternity..

Anyone who reads Revelations Chapter 19 and then chapter 20 will see a clear 1000 Kingdom period where Jesus shall rule the world with the Saints..

 

[Adstar]

The 1000 years is not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when loosed.

The Kingdom has already started in Spirit. No matter how satan and when satan attacks.. The Kingdom in spirit is now and satan is attacking now..

 

[Dave-L]

This portion of scripture in No way discredits the Millennium.. As a Millennial Kingdom believer i believe Jesus shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.

His Kingdom started on the Day of Pentecost when the apostles first received the Holy Spirit and that Kingdom will never end.. But it does go through a number of forms.. First it is a spiritual kingdom being built up over the centuries then a physical kingdom on earth for 1000 years and then after the final resurrection into eternity..

Anyone who reads Revelations Chapter 19 and then chapter 20 will see a clear 1000 Kingdom period where Jesus shall rule the world with the Saints..

There is no physical kingdom Jesus says flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You cannot understand the OT without giving the NT priority.

You have it backwards
again when your ready to discuss actual passages let me know

 

[Dave-L]

You have it backwards
again when your ready to discuss actual passages let me know

Jesus interprets the OT for us. As does the rest of the NT.

 

[Adstar]

There is no physical kingdom Jesus says flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

This current carnal / fallen flesh and blood... Jesus was talking about the Flesh and Blood human beings where in at the time He made that declaration.. He was right we cannot inherit the kingdom while being in this current form of flesh.. That's why we shall be reasurected to inherit the Kingdom..

When Jesus assended in to heaven He was transformed into a perfect eternal body.. a body described by John in Revelation chapter 1.. Jesus used the hand of His perfect body by placing it on John..

Revelation 1: KJV
17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: {18} I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

 

[Dave-L]

This current carnal / fallen flesh and blood... Jesus was talking about the Flesh and Blood human beings where in at the time He made that declaration.. He was right we cannot inherit the kingdom while being in this current form of flesh.. That's why we shall be reasurected to inherit the Kingdom..

When Jesus assended in to heaven He was transformed into a perfect eternal body.. a body described by John in Revelation chapter 1.. Jesus used the hand of His perfect body by placing it on John..

Revelation 1: KJV
17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: {18} I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

But this is the New Heavens and Earth. If not, all you have in the millennium are resurrected saints for Satan to deceive and war against each other when the 1000 years end.

 

[Dave-L]

You should read the scriptures involved in Chapter 20 before stating satan would be deceive the Saints during the 1000 years because the scriptures say that satan will be bound and chains and placed in the bottomless pit for the 1000 years and will not be able to deceive men during that time..

Revelation 20: KJV
1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. {2} And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, {3} And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Please read Revelation chapter 20 read it like a book it flows chronologically.

Jesus refutes the physical Millennium. You need to learn his view before dabbling with Revelation.