The message of reconciliation.

[throughfaith]

I do believe it does address your point. They are the rules of grammar. A language where the rules of grammar are overturned is incapable of transmitting a coherent idea.

As to your example, the answer is in verse 9. Are ALL MEN saved "through Him"? The term "we" applies to a favored party and implies a party who were not saved. And verse 2 sets forth who this favored party are; "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand ... ." Not only is another party, who are without faith implied, but the whole Bible tells of this opposite party.

1 john 2.2


And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
its the same deal here in Rom 5

6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[Corban]

I could give 5 reasons that ' laying on of hands is necessary, and foot washing. But id be teaching falsely.

You divert the point I made. You stated that Baptism not being connected to reconciliation was "a great point". That is what we discuss. Maybe you can tell why these two unrelated points must be brought together in the matter of reconciliation. But if you choose not to, I agree, for we are in danger of derailing the thread.

 

[throughfaith]

You divert the point I made. You stated that Baptism not being connected to reconciliation was "a great point". That is what we discuss. Maybe you can tell why these two unrelated points must be brought together in the matter of reconciliation. But if you choose not to, I agree, for we are in danger of derailing the thread.

It wasn't my comment . I simply added it was a good point. Maybe its better suited for a ' baptism by water ' thread ?

 

[throughfaith]

If the "we" has been defined it means ONLY that party. The party is defined in verse 2. It is NOT "all men". It is those who profited and were favored because of faith.

Then only those at Rome are saved then? And Paul? I am saying that only those that believe ' profit " from receiving the atonment . Only those are justified.

 

[throughfaith]

If the "we" has been defined it means ONLY that party. The party is defined in verse 2. It is NOT "all men". It is those who profited and were favored because of faith.

To be clear . I am saying only those who believe, recieve the atonement . The rest of my post still stands .

 

[Corban]

1 john 2.2


And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
its the same deal here in Rom 5

6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

OK. I see what you are getting at. Let's drop the combat and sort this out. Here is my take on the matter.

God's Economy ("Oikonomia" = household management), or "eternal purpose" is to achieve one thing - to "Head up" all things in the creation in Christ in the fullness of time (Eph.1:10). The word in the Greek is a compound word made of "ana" - meaning "up", and "kephalaioo" - meaning a "head". The KJV is not wrong but translated the word by its extension. Let's not argue that now because it becomes more apparent later. Now, let's define "all things". "All Things" in heaven and on earth refer to (i) angels, (ii) the Church, (iii) Israel, (iv) the Gentiles, (v) the physical Creature. Next we must define the problem with each one, or the reason why they are not yet headed up in Christ.

1. The Church is headed up by Christ but until they are resurrected, they cannot be His complete Body because of the "Gates of Hades" - death. The Church is predestined, not to salvation, but to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom.8:29). God will achieve that by a rebirth in the human spirit by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3.6), a transformation of the soul by the same Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18), and a resurrection that renders the body with "celestial glory" like Christ's. God is 100% righteous, so He needs water tight JUDICIAL conditions to do this to sinners. Christ completes all the JUDICIAL prerequisites by His death and resurrection.
2. Israel never believe. But (i) Jesus is their King by birth to David's line, and (ii) they have a Covenant given to Abraham that is not annulled. God MUST fulfill these Covenants, BUT ... Israel's sins against the LAW preclude this. So Christ is the LAMB that creates a JUDICIAL setting by His death and resurrection whereby God MAY, if He likes, forgive Israel their trespasses. But another problem is that Israel, Jacob's seed, are mostly dead. How can God rightfully resurrect them to give them Canaan as "an everlasting possession"? So not only does the Lamb die for trespasses, but dies for the underlying cause of death - SIN (singular - the nature inherited from Adam - Rom.5:12, Jn.1:29). God can wipe Israels' SIN and SINS based on Jesus' death and resurrection IF HE WANTS TO. It is not a matter between God and Israel. It is a matter between God and the price Jesus paid. He paid in full for (i) the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), and (ii) the sins of the world (1st Jn.2:2). God may apply this if He wants to - and He does FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE in keeping a Covenant.
3. The Gentiles are presently enemies of God. But "all things were made BY Him and FOR Him". By default Jesus is the OWNER of the Nations (Gentiles). All that remains is for Him to take, by force, the Citadel of His enemies. This starts at Armadeddon and ends 1,000 years later when He conquers His last enemy - death. By Revelation 20:11-14 all enemies are subjugated and Jesus is undisputed King of kings. But the Gentiles are (i) unbelievers, and (ii) many are dead. On what basis may God let some escape? How will the two-year-old who is run over and killed, be shown mercy at the White Throne? AGAIN; on the JUDICIAL ground prepared by Christ. Both SIN (singular) and TRESPASSES (plural) are taken care of and so Jehovah MAY extend mercy to anyone He likes. And again, death is only defeated by the SIN of the world being JUDICIALLY taken care of by Christ atonement. But God loves justice, so Hitler gets his portion and the two-year-old gets his IN PROPORTION TO THEIR WORKS. It is "THEIR (personal) worm" and "THEIR (personal) fire". Isaiah 66:24 says that those who actively opposed God go to the Lake of Fire. The two-year-old becomes one "in whom all the families of the earth are blessed" by righteous government by the seed of Abraham
4. The Physical Creature. When Cain killed Abel the earth was cursed. When all the innocent blood ever shed was shed, the earth was polluted. Sexual sins pollute the earth. Idolatry pollutes the earth. Rebellion pollutes the earth in the case of men, and pollutes heaven in the case of angels. And more than all of these, but because of these, God CURSED the earth. This must be undone, otherwise Christ will inherit a dung hill and not the beautiful Creation that God created in the beginning. On what basis is the earth cursed ? ON ABEL'S BLOOD. On what basis is the earth restored? ON CHRIST'S BLOOD (Heb.12:24). So we can say (abstractly) that Christ's also died for the Creation. In actual fact, that was the "sign" given at His Baptism. He did not need the remission of sins. But He was from Mary - a part of the old creation. He symbolically "dies" and is "buried" in the death-waters of Jordan, and fulfills this sign on Golgotha. It is by His atoneing death that God may make New (renewed - lit. Gk.) Heavens and New Earth. The "pristine" new creation is then headed up by Him because He achieved the JUDICIAL rights by His blood.

If this is what you meant in our discussion, then I agree with you. But I would not have used a text addressed to a Church. I would have gone straight to John 1:29 and 1st John 2:2. It is nearly 01:00 here and I'm hitting the sack. I've not proof-read this posting so please forgive typos. Good night and go well bro.

 

[Guojing]

"ministry" is a noun. It comes from the word "to serve tables". How does one serve tables by being baptized? But if the author meant "reconciliation", how then does refusing, or demeaning Baptism, affect bringing an enemy of God to Him and effecting a reconciliation?

Baptism is a fact of scripture. It is also a command, whether you understand it or not. And for those with understanding, there are about five reasons to be Baptized. Why is there so much effort invested to annul it?

You have to understand in context. His affirmation is based on what he understood about rightly dividing the word of truth, in that Acts 2:38 thread.

 

[throughfaith]

As I tried to explain, the atoning work of Christ removed the enmity on the side of God, since Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Nonetheless, all unsaved people are essentially enemies of God and they need to be reconciled to God through Christ. As you can see, this is not about limited atonement (which is false) but obedience to the Gospel. Until and unless a sinner turns to Christ, he remains alienated from God.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col 1:20,21)

Christ made peace between a holy God and sinful mankind through the blood of His cross. But that peace is not available to those who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. They remain enemies until they repent. However, Paul is addressing Christians here and telling them (and us) that we were all alienated and enemies of God, but are now reconciled because we have received Christ as Lord and Savior.

How am I differing from what your saying here ?