The message of reconciliation.

[Guojing]

What does this mean? Firstly sin brought enmity between God and man. Before we were saved, we were all enemies of God (Col 1:20). The sacrifice of Christ removed the enmity of God from mankind. Thus God was in Christ "reconciling the world unto Himself". Reconciliation means THE REMOVAL OF ENMITY ( "the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ").

Therefore the only enmity which exists is on the part of men who are outside of Christ. The "ministry of reconciliation" is in effect the preaching of the Gospel, since those who obey the Gospel are reconciled to God through Christ.

Do you notice that, when Paul talks about the "ministry of reconciliation", he made no mention of the need for water baptism?

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

If the Cross of Christ is not strictly the Object of our Faith, God looks at everything else as "worldliness." No matter how religious our efforts may be otherwise, it is still looked at by the Lord as "friendship with the world." This means the Believer, in essence, becomes an "enemy of God."

Philippians 3:17-21 King James Version (KJV)

ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

17 Brethren, be followers together of me (be "Fellow-imitators"), and mark them which walk so as you have us for an ensample (observe intently).

18 (For many walk (speaks of those attempting to live for God outside of the victory and rudiments of the Cross of Christ), of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping (this is a most serious matter), that they are the enemies of the Cross of Christ (those who do not look exclusively to the Cross of Christ must be labeled "enemies"):

19 Whose end is destruction (if the Cross is ignored, and continues to be ignored, the loss of the soul is the only ultimate conclusion), whose God is their belly (refers to those who attempt to pervert the Gospel for their own personal gain), and whose glory is in their shame (the material things they seek, God labels as "shame"), who mind earthly things.) (This means they have no interest in Heavenly things, which signifies they are using the Lord for their own personal gain.)

20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in Heaven (meaning the other ways will have no place in Heaven); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ (the Rapture):

21 Who (the Lord) shall change our vile body (the Resurrection), that it may be fashioned like unto his Glorious body (every Saint will have a Glorified Body), according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. ("All things" are done through the Cross.)

"All things" are done through the Cross. If you leave the Cross, you enter death (Romans 8:1-2, 6, 13)

JSM

 

[Bbrdrd]

What a mess! Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.

"Jesus died for all sin, even the sin of unbelief, except for those who are in hell for not believing..."

That's pretty much what you're saying, which is obviously false and if I may, really dumb.

While I'm disposed to agree with you, I see one way that might rectify such a position and make it slightly less dumb.

That being that the condemnation does not come from God, but instead from the individual themselves. If we think of verses like Matthew 12:37 or Romans 2:1 such a self-condemnation may be seen.

Still a rather weak position especially when considering the bulk of Scripture, especially as it simply creates a problem that need not be in God holding men accountable for whatever reason the original poster thought it up.

 

[throughfaith]

I think that you might want to revise your opinion. In Romans 5:8-11 we read;

8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

The various benefits of this passage pertain to US - the believer - not all men (see who Paul addresses - Rom.1:7). It is true that Christ died for "the Sin (singular) of the world" (Jn.1:29), and He died for the trespasses (sins - plural) of the world (1st Jn.2:2). But they were not to release the infidel. They were to set a judicial groundwork for (i) the resurrection of all men (1st Cor.15:22), and (ii) the freedom for God to have mercy on whom He likes. The main beneficiary is of course Israel who receive mercy though they are "concluded by God in UNBELIEF" until the times of the Gentiles are full - Armageddon.

I am aware of Romans 11:15 and 2 Corinthians 5:19 and "the reconciling of the world", but the past continuous tense shows an ongoing process that (i) will have an end, and (ii) is conditional. You can see this conditional reconciliation in point (ii). In Romans 11:15 Israel are cast away at first. Their reconciliation comes after the Church is built (Act.15:14-16) and is based on Covenant - not faith. This, the Gentiles do not have.

Wouldn't that be the negative inference fallacy . By assuming the ' we ' and ' us ' only refers to 'them '?
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me .
Of course I'm being silly , but by Paul saying ' for me ' we understand he doesn't mean Jesus only died for him .

 

[throughfaith]

What does this mean? Firstly sin brought enmity between God and man. Before we were saved, we were all enemies of God (Col 1:20). The sacrifice of Christ removed the enmity of God from mankind. Thus God was in Christ "reconciling the world unto Himself". Reconciliation means THE REMOVAL OF ENMITY ( "the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ").

Therefore the only enmity which exists is on the part of men who are outside of Christ. The "ministry of reconciliation" is in effect the preaching of the Gospel, since those who obey the Gospel are reconciled to God through Christ.

So is the enmity still there between sinners or not ? I believe ' while we were yet sinners ' means everyone without exception because Jesus died for the whole world . We are all sinners whom Jesus died for . " behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world " . Do you believe in a limited atonement?

 

[Nehemiah6]

So is the enmity still there between sinners or not ? I believe ' while we were yet sinners ' means everyone without exception because Jesus died for the whole world . We are all sinners whom Jesus died for . " behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world " . Do you believe in a limited atonement?

As I tried to explain, the atoning work of Christ removed the enmity on the side of God, since Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Nonetheless, all unsaved people are essentially enemies of God and they need to be reconciled to God through Christ. As you can see, this is not about limited atonement (which is false) but obedience to the Gospel. Until and unless a sinner turns to Christ, he remains alienated from God.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col 1:20,21)

Christ made peace between a holy God and sinful mankind through the blood of His cross. But that peace is not available to those who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. They remain enemies until they repent. However, Paul is addressing Christians here and telling them (and us) that we were all alienated and enemies of God, but are now reconciled because we have received Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[throughfaith]

While I'm disposed to agree with you, I see one way that might rectify such a position and make it slightly less dumb.

That being that the condemnation does not come from God, but instead from the individual themselves. If we think of verses like Matthew 12:37 or Romans 2:1 such a self-condemnation may be seen.

Still a rather weak position especially when considering the bulk of Scripture, especially as it simply creates a problem that need not be in God holding men accountable for whatever reason the original poster thought it up.

I happy to look a

“14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (every contrite heart earnestly desires to be among the “few”; the requirements are greater than most are willing to accept).” Matthew 7:14

“21 Not every one who says unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (the repetition of the word “Lord” expresses astonishment, as if to say: “Are we to be disowned?”); but he who does the Will of My Father which is in Heaven (what is the Will of the Father? Verse 23 tells us).

22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not Prophesied in Your Name? and in Your Name have cast out devils? and in Your Name done many wonderful works? (These things are not the criteria, but rather Faith in Christ and what Christ has done for us at the Cross [Eph. 2:8-9, 13-18]. The Word of God alone is to be the judge of doctrine.)

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you (again we say, the criteria alone is Christ and Him Crucified [I Cor. 1:23]): depart from Me, you who work iniquity (we have access to God only through Christ, and access to Christ only through the Cross, and access to the Cross only through a denial of self [Lk. 9:23]; any other Message is Judged by God as “iniquity,” and cannot be a part of Christ [I Cor. 1:17]).” Matthew 7:21-23

JSM

If you are a believer today ,you have found the ' way ' ( Jesus ) John 14.6 . The hard part is over for the person thats found him and recieved him . John 1.12 . . And I believe those in mathew 7 Jesus never knew them . If Jesus never knew them ,they were never saved . This is true today. If Jesus does not know you then your not saved . The most crucial thu

As I tried to explain, the atoning work of Christ removed the enmity on the side of God, since Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Nonetheless, all unsaved people are essentially enemies of God and they need to be reconciled to God through Christ. As you can see, this is not about limited atonement (which is false) but obedience to the Gospel. Until and unless a sinner turns to Christ, he remains alienated from God.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col 1:20,21)

Christ made peace between a holy God and sinful mankind through the blood of His cross. But that peace is not available to those who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. They remain enemies until they repent. However, Paul is addressing Christians here and telling them (and us) that we were all alienated and enemies of God, but are now reconciled because we have received Christ as Lord and Savior.

19¶For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21¶And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
I see the ' enemies in your mind ' . But I see these verses in support still as to what I'm saying .

 

[throughfaith]

As I tried to explain, the atoning work of Christ removed the enmity on the side of God, since Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Nonetheless, all unsaved people are essentially enemies of God and they need to be reconciled to God through Christ. As you can see, this is not about limited atonement (which is false) but obedience to the Gospel. Until and unless a sinner turns to Christ, he remains alienated from God.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. (Col 1:20,21)

Christ made peace between a holy God and sinful mankind through the blood of His cross. But that peace is not available to those who refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. They remain enemies until they repent. However, Paul is addressing Christians here and telling them (and us) that we were all alienated and enemies of God, but are now reconciled because we have received Christ as Lord and Savior.

People are only outside and unknown , without hope and what ever other description the bible gives is because they are not ' in christ ' . Of course that s the difference . Those in Christ and those outside Christ . ultimately the difference is ,only those in Christ will be glorified.

 

[throughfaith]

What does this mean? Firstly sin brought enmity between God and man. Before we were saved, we were all enemies of God (Col 1:20). The sacrifice of Christ removed the enmity of God from mankind. Thus God was in Christ "reconciling the world unto Himself". Reconciliation means THE REMOVAL OF ENMITY ( "the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ").

Therefore the only enmity which exists is on the part of men who are outside of Christ. The "ministry of reconciliation" is in effect the preaching of the Gospel, since those who obey the Gospel are reconciled to God through Christ.

No one will be in hell ' paying for their sins ' . Would you agree ?

 

[Corban]

Wouldn't that be the negative inference fallacy . By assuming the ' we ' and ' us ' only refers to 'them '?
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me .
Of course I'm being silly , but by Paul saying ' for me ' we understand he doesn't mean Jesus only died for him .

No. by the rules of grammar "for me" qualifies the four times mentioned "I". So also my previous posting. By using "we", the author CONTRASTS one party with another. Implied is "they" and "them" and "their". If I say, "We Christian have Christ", I not only state that it is a select group, but I imply that there is another who does not have Christ.

 

[throughfaith]

No. by the rules of grammar "for me" qualifies the four times mentioned "I". So also my previous posting. By using "we", the author CONTRASTS one party with another. Implied is "they" and "them" and "their". If I say, "We Christian have Christ", I not only state that it is a select group, but I imply that there is another who does not have Christ.

I don't think that addresses my point. How else should Paul have said it ? Just as I understand Paul when he says ' Died for me ' . I don't exclude anyone else . The same is obviously true here.
6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Is this just Paul and his readers ? just Christians? Europeans? American s ?
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners ( same question ? hands up who is not a sinner ,? any one ?, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies,( is it just Paul and these hes writing to that are and we're enemies ? ) we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men , for that all have sinned:( Had only Paul and those to whom he is writing to ' sinned ' )

 

[throughfaith]

No. by the rules of grammar "for me" qualifies the four times mentioned "I". So also my previous posting. By using "we", the author CONTRASTS one party with another. Implied is "they" and "them" and "their". If I say, "We Christian have Christ", I not only state that it is a select group, but I imply that there is another who does not have Christ.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners ( same question ? hands up who is not a sinner ,? any one ?, Christ died for us.( Again , just paul and these at Rome? or all the ungodly and all sinners? Of course we can say ' we ' and ' us ' . I say ' he died for me " , not to the exclusion of any one else. The whole congregation could say " he died for us " not to the exclusion of everyone else " . ect ect .
9Much more then, being now ( when? well those in Christ who have! recieved Jesus and have ! been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. ( This is exclusive to believers )
10For if, when we were enemies,( is it just Paul and these hes writing to that are and we're enemies ? ) we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son ( back to everyone without exception) , much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. ( How we can be glorified, by the resurrection)
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.( this is exclusive again . Unless a person receives the provision , they will not be glorified)
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men , for that all have sinned:( Had only Paul and those to whom he is writing to ' sinned ' )

 

[throughfaith]

Do you notice that, when Paul talks about the "ministry of reconciliation", he made no mention of the need for water baptism?

Great point .

 

[Corban]

I don't think that addresses my point. How else should Paul have said it ? Just as I understand Paul when he says ' Died for me ' . I don't exclude anyone else . The same is obviously true here.
6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Is this just Paul and his readers ? just Christians? Europeans? American s ?
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners ( same question ? hands up who is not a sinner ,? any one ?, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies,( is it just Paul and these hes writing to that are and we're enemies ? ) we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men , for that all have sinned:( Had only Paul and those to whom he is writing to ' sinned ' )

I do believe it does address your point. They are the rules of grammar. A language where the rules of grammar are overturned is incapable of transmitting a coherent idea.

As to your example, the answer is in verse 9. Are ALL MEN saved "through Him"? The term "we" applies to a favored party and implies a party who were not saved. And verse 2 sets forth who this favored party are; "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand ... ." Not only is another party, who are without faith implied, but the whole Bible tells of this opposite party.

 

[Corban]

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners ( same question ? hands up who is not a sinner ,? any one ?, Christ died for us.( Again , just paul and these at Rome? or all the ungodly and all sinners? Of course we can say ' we ' and ' us ' . I say ' he died for me " , not to the exclusion of any one else. The whole congregation could say " he died for us " not to the exclusion of everyone else " . ect ect .
9Much more then, being now ( when? well those in Christ who have! recieved Jesus and have ! been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. ( This is exclusive to believers )
10For if, when we were enemies,( is it just Paul and these hes writing to that are and we're enemies ? ) we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son ( back to everyone without exception) , much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. ( How we can be glorified, by the resurrection)
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.( this is exclusive again . Unless a person receives the provision , they will not be glorified)
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men , for that all have sinned:( Had only Paul and those to whom he is writing to ' sinned ' )

I'll stand on my posting # 34.

 

[Corban]

Great point .

"ministry" is a noun. It comes from the word "to serve tables". How does one serve tables by being baptized? But if the author meant "reconciliation", how then does refusing, or demeaning Baptism, affect bringing an enemy of God to Him and effecting a reconciliation?

Baptism is a fact of scripture. It is also a command, whether you understand it or not. And for those with understanding, there are about five reasons to be Baptized. Why is there so much effort invested to annul it?

 

[throughfaith]

I do believe it does address your point. They are the rules of grammar. A language where the rules of grammar are overturned is incapable of transmitting a coherent idea.

As to your example, the answer is in verse 9. Are ALL MEN saved "through Him"? The term "we" applies to a favored party and implies a party who were not saved. And verse 2 sets forth who this favored party are; "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand ... ." Not only is another party, who are without faith implied, but the whole Bible tells of this opposite party.

There is no other way Paul could have said what he said without ' we ' and ' us ' ect .' We' say this all the time about ' us' and ' our ' s and ' me ' which does not exclude ' everyone ' . Especially given the context . Your not explaining the context but only the grammar.

 

[throughfaith]

"ministry" is a noun. It comes from the word "to serve tables". How does one serve tables by being baptized? But if the author meant "reconciliation", how then does refusing, or demeaning Baptism, affect bringing an enemy of God to Him and effecting a reconciliation?

Baptism is a fact of scripture. It is also a command, whether you understand it or not. And for those with understanding, there are about five reasons to be Baptized. Why is there so much effort invested to annul it?

I could give 5 reasons that ' laying on of hands is necessary, and foot washing. But id be teaching falsely.

 

[throughfaith]

If the Cross of Christ is not strictly the Object of our Faith, God looks at everything else as "worldliness." No matter how religious our efforts may be otherwise, it is still looked at by the Lord as "friendship with the world." This means the Believer, in essence, becomes an "enemy of God."

Philippians 3:17-21 King James Version (KJV)

ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

17 Brethren, be followers together of me (be "Fellow-imitators"), and mark them which walk so as you have us for an ensample (observe intently).

18 (For many walk (speaks of those attempting to live for God outside of the victory and rudiments of the Cross of Christ), of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping (this is a most serious matter), that they are the enemies of the Cross of Christ (those who do not look exclusively to the Cross of Christ must be labeled "enemies"):

19 Whose end is destruction (if the Cross is ignored, and continues to be ignored, the loss of the soul is the only ultimate conclusion), whose God is their belly (refers to those who attempt to pervert the Gospel for their own personal gain), and whose glory is in their shame (the material things they seek, God labels as "shame"), who mind earthly things.) (This means they have no interest in Heavenly things, which signifies they are using the Lord for their own personal gain.)

20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in Heaven (meaning the other ways will have no place in Heaven); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ (the Rapture):

21 Who (the Lord) shall change our vile body (the Resurrection), that it may be fashioned like unto his Glorious body (every Saint will have a Glorified Body), according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. ("All things" are done through the Cross.)

"All things" are done through the Cross. If you leave the Cross, you enter death (Romans 8:1-2, 6, 13)

JSM

As soon as you stop quoting someone else, I.ll respond. please.

 

[Corban]

There is no other way Paul could have said what he said without ' we ' and ' us ' ect .' We' say this all the time about ' us' and ' our ' s and ' me ' which does not exclude ' everyone ' . Especially given the context . Your not explaining the context but only the grammar.

If the "we" has been defined it means ONLY that party. The party is defined in verse 2. It is NOT "all men". It is those who profited and were favored because of faith.