THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

[lenna]

From John pipers church concerning regeneration

VI. REGENERATION
We believe that man was created by God in His own image; that he sinned and thereby incurred physical, spiritual and eternal death, which is separation from God; that as a consequence, all human beings are born with a sinful nature and are sinners by choice and therefore under condemnation. We believe that those who repent and forsake sin and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures, delivered from condemnation and receive eternal life.

while the term forsake sin is worry some and very lordship centered, no calvinist thinks a person is regenerated because of what they did

nice try

this is a baptist church much like a particular time in the baptist church I grew up In

we were not calvinist

my thought is that the term 'forsake sin' is meant to denote deliberate and ongoing sin. I do not believe he is advocating sinlessness

 

[lenna]

Let’s see him argue with this!

oh you know he's going to. or put a spin on it

ok...read his response and he spinned it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oh you know he's going to. or put a spin on it

ok...read his response and he spinned it.

Yep! he spinned it and Refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong. Sounds like another person in here who does that to us all the time. I am about to put them in the same room and maybe they can teach each other some humility

 

[PEYTON]

Why do we make salvation so effortful? I am quoting here from a meditation I read just today. "Simply listen to the gospel. Simply look to Christ. He has lived a life of good works for you. He has suffeered condemnation for you. He has given you the gift of faith in him. He will keep you in that faith until he comes again".

 

[lenna]

Yep! he spinned it and Refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong. Sounds like another person in here who does that to us all the time. I am about to put them in the same room and maybe they can teach each other some humility

well I don't know who you mean and I don't wanna know LOL!

it is just so interesting to see how people become so in love with their own opinions even when presented with plain black and white facts. for the record, I certainly have changed my mind on things when presented with facts and had to let go of certain ideas or opinions and not just regarding scripture, but in the life you live every day!

funny expression in cases like this: the mind is like cement. all mixed up and set.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well I don't know who you mean and I don't wanna know LOL!

it is just so interesting to see how people become so in love with their own opinions even when presented with plain black and white facts. for the record, I certainly have changed my mind on things when presented with facts and had to let go of certain ideas or opinions and not just regarding scripture, but in the life you live every day!

funny expression in cases like this: the mind is like cement. all mixed up and set.

Yeah I had to eat some humble pie a few times since I have been here. In the long run. It is better because it is ruff defending yourself all the time when your wrong lol. I have changed my view on a few things also

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do we make salvation so effortful? I am quoting here from a meditation I read just today. "Simply listen to the gospel. Simply look to Christ. He has lived a life of good works for you. He has suffeered condemnation for you. He has given you the gift of faith in him. He will keep you in that faith until he comes again".

Sadly it’s human nature as Paul said the backward wisdom Of god Human nature is the opposite of god so we make it harder than it is

 

[EleventhHour]

Hello EleventhHour, lol, that does sound a bit off, doesn't it! I've read enough of Dr. Sproul's writings to understand what he meant, but w/o that understanding/by itself, you're right, it doesn't sound "logical".

Considering the length of the article, I believe it was written for Tabletalk Magazine, a monthly 6" x 9" publication that Dr. Sproul wrote the opening article for, and the opener was always just one side of one page (so there wasn't a lot of room for extensive details + they knew that those who purchased a subscription to Tabletalk Magazine would probably know what he meant, just like I did).

This opening to another one of his articles may help explain it a bit. It's actually part of a somewhat longer phrase or saying.



*~https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/more-conquerors/

Many grow up in the church and/or make a confession of faith, claiming and perhaps even believing that they are Christians because they do, but in reality, they aren't, because they've never come to actual, saving faith in the Lord Jesus (church attendance and confessions of faith do not save us, God does, as I'm sure you already know).

BTW, I was such a person, for 30 years!! I was baptized as an infant and raised in the church (so to speak). I went to Sunday School through the 6th grade, sung in the children's choir (and later in the adult choir), was confirmed, went on retreats, and I attended church regularly through high school, you know, the whole 9 yards. So I always ~thought~ I was a Christian (why wouldn't I have?) until the day I actually became one, that is, which is when EVERYTHING changed, PTL

The Bible has something to say about this (which is why Calvinism teaches what it does).

​

Matthew 7​

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’​

23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’​

​

1 John 2​

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.​

​

I hope that helps a bit. If not, please let me know and I"ll try again.

God bless you!

~Deut

That is, the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints may be seen as the logical conclusion to, or as a rational inference from, the doctrine of predestination.
R C Sproul

The doctrine of perseverance is necessitated by the doctrine of predestination.
Yet what does it mean to persevere?
What does that look like in concrete terms.
The person who does not persevere, was not saved correct, not one of the elect?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

my thought is that the term 'forsake sin' is meant to denote deliberate and ongoing sin. I do not believe he is advocating sinlessness

I do not know a soul who came to Christ and thought that he was going to 1 become sinless and 2. Not think he needs help changing his sin life

 

[throughfaith]

you do come across as somewhat arrogant and I am probably not the first person to tell you that

I don't care, actually, how much you think you know. What Calvinists teach here is that you cannot be lost and that is what you find when you do research on the TULIP acronym

P - Preservation of the Saints
The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

God's Word is full of proof for this beautiful truth. And though many deny it, and tell you that you can be lost and saved many, many times, and therefore can never be sure of your salvation, the Bible says otherwise. Talking about His elect sheep, Jesus said: "And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28). See John 6:39, 17:2, 11,12; Romans 8:37-39; II Tim. 1:12; 4:18, etc. etc.

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men "carnally secure" in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will "live like the devil." There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS." Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They "continue in well-doing." Anyone who says he can "live like the devil" has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine? We don't need to be "scared to heaven." We need comfort. Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it. You know yourself!!!! There is no power in me apart from God's grace. Rev. Barry Gritters


Even when the P is interpreted as perseverance rather than preservation, it is STILL meant as OSAS. Following is from THE CALVINIST CORNER, written by and for Calvinists.


Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

It’s no ok to make accusations against people which are false

Then please stop . I think I may need to put you on the ignore list .

 

[throughfaith]

you do come across as somewhat arrogant and I am probably not the first person to tell you that

I don't care, actually, how much you think you know. What Calvinists teach here is that you cannot be lost and that is what you find when you do research on the TULIP acronym

P - Preservation of the Saints
The last of the five points of Calvinism teaches that God preserves His people so they can never be lost. To put it simply, it means this: "Once you are saved, you are always saved."

God's Word is full of proof for this beautiful truth. And though many deny it, and tell you that you can be lost and saved many, many times, and therefore can never be sure of your salvation, the Bible says otherwise. Talking about His elect sheep, Jesus said: "And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28). See John 6:39, 17:2, 11,12; Romans 8:37-39; II Tim. 1:12; 4:18, etc. etc.

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men "carnally secure" in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will "live like the devil." There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS." Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They "continue in well-doing." Anyone who says he can "live like the devil" has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Is there any hope for Christians without this doctrine? We don't need to be "scared to heaven." We need comfort. Because we know that if it were up to the Christian to remain saved, he would never be able to do it. You know yourself!!!! There is no power in me apart from God's grace. Rev. Barry Gritters


Even when the P is interpreted as perseverance rather than preservation, it is STILL meant as OSAS. Following is from THE CALVINIST CORNER, written by and for Calvinists.


Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

Your missing my point . Calvinists believe If you are elected to salvation you cannot be lost . However they can never know ultimately if they are one of those elected to salvation apart from their works .

 

[throughfaith]

Grandpa is a Calvinist and he agreed with my statement

You are so busy telling people what they believe you don't listen when they tell you what they actually believe

maybe close the mouth and open the ears. yeah. that is me being sarcastic and no wonder at this point with your ridiculous replies

I'm stating what those outside of Calvinism say about the TULIP system . I don't expect calvinists to agree that they are looking to their works or to agree that 'Lordship salvation 'is a problem. I don't even expect non calvinists who don't understand Calvinism to agree either . Hence the reaction im getting from non Calvinists, ironically.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then please stop . I think I may need to put you on the ignore list .

Me stop?

Your the one making accusations against others and refusing to admit it. I am not the only one who thinks so either

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your missing my point . Calvinists believe If you are elected to salvation you cannot be lost . However they can never know ultimately if they are one of those elected to salvation apart from their works .

This is false. Why do you continue to make false statements ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm stating what those outside of Calvinism say about the TULIP system . I don't expect calvinists to agree that they are looking to their works or to agree that 'Lordship salvation 'is a problem. I don't even expect non calvinists who don't understand Calvinism to agree either . Hence the reaction im getting from non Calvinists, ironically.

Yeah it’s everyone else’s fault

Should I call you preacher? He does the same thing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grandpa is a Calvinist and he agreed with my statement

You are so busy telling people what they believe you don't listen when they tell you what they actually believe

maybe close the mouth and open the ears. yeah. that is me being sarcastic and no wonder at this point with your ridiculous replies

Got to love it when people think they can tell others what they believe then get mad when people they accuse deny it

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is false. Why do you continue to make false statements ?

Because he is committed to false doctrine. Calvinists -- regardless of their faulty theology -- are also children of God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore they will have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit that they are children of God (if indeed they have been saved). They do not have to wait for any length of time to know this. And all genuine Christians will have the same inner witness, as the Bible clearly states.

At the same time, the Bible makes it crystal clear that we are saved "unto good works". Which means that if good works (some of the fruits of the Spirit) are absent, that person is not really saved. And that is exactly what James was talking about.

A lot of people need to carefully study the Westminster Confession of Faith to understand Reformed Theology (which is Calvinist Theology). There is much that is true in that Confession, which is marred by that which is false (e.g. that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation).

 

[throughfaith]

Grandpa is a Calvinist and he agreed with my statement

You are so busy telling people what they believe you don't listen when they tell you what they actually believe

maybe close the mouth and open the ears. yeah. that is me being sarcastic and no wonder at this point with your ridiculous replies

The basic premise is this . For those that reject the 5 points of calvinism understand that the P in TULIP Is not the same as ' Eternal security ' that non calinists hold to . Meaning the OSAS calvinist version is not the same as a non Calvinist position .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The basic premise is this . For those that reject the 5 points of calvinism understand that the P in TULIP Is not the same as ' Eternal security ' that non calinists hold to . Meaning the OSAS calvinist version is not the same as a non Calvinist position .

And your wrong. At least from all Calvinist I know

 

[lenna]

The basic premise is this . For those that reject the 5 points of calvinism understand that the P in TULIP Is not the same as ' Eternal security ' that non calinists hold to . Meaning the OSAS calvinist version is not the same as a non Calvinist position .

even though an actual real live breathing on this earth at the same time as you actual Calvinist who believes in TULIP0 said it was and even though you were given links by 2 people, myself being one, that tells you point blank that you are WRONG and even though one of the links I gave was to an actual Calvinist run site, as run by and written by Calvinists and not hearsay, so even though you have ALL that and more if you check the posts of actual Calvinists on this very site...you know the one you are using? well even though all of that has been generously given to you, you still gonna come up with this nonsense?

well you go there mr. must be lonely on that little cloud you live on