The Heresy of Annihilationism
- Thread starter CS1
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I don't have the money for the very best lexicon and 20 other sources...and no disciple for a long time had a lexicon and 20 other sources. So...I think I'll be okay with my bible and the Holy Spirit and my Strongs. 
While research tools and books can certainly help at times, it's not necessary to have a $2000 biblical library to be able to read and understand the Bible. Plus, with a bit of digging, there's a lot of info available for free on the internet.
-
1
- Show all
I don't have the money for the very best lexicon and 20 other sources...and no disciple for a long time had a lexicon and 20 other sources. So...I think I'll be okay with my bible and the Holy Spirit and my Strongs.
Blessings
Bill
-
1
- Show all
While research tools and books can certainly help at times, it's not necessary to have a $2000 biblical library to be able to read and understand the Bible. Plus, with a bit of digging, there's a lot of info available for free on the internet.
Their are other apps that are probably better out there too .
Blessings
Bill
-
1
- Show all
Angela, could you weigh the following scriptures without deducing Rev. 20:10 is nothing more than a memorial, like we have films of cleaning out the holocaust death camps. Somehow these scenes are preserved. File, tape or digitally, I am sure we don't need to give God an idea on how to store data. The same in Mark 9 where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.
Now for Rev. 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
The last "are" in that sentence was added by translators for ease of reading. You could read "where the beast and false profit were cast." What happens when you toss a live person into fire, they die! Even Satan will not be tormented forever.
Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.
Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.
You are the Greek expert, how do we parse Rev. 20:10 with Eze. 28:19?
Now for Rev. 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
The last "are" in that sentence was added by translators for ease of reading. You could read "where the beast and false profit were cast." What happens when you toss a live person into fire, they die! Even Satan will not be tormented forever.
Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.
Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.
You are the Greek expert, how do we parse Rev. 20:10 with Eze. 28:19?
It depends on which Greek word is being translated, the basic words being Apollumi, apoleia and olethros, not of which infer annihilation or extinction.
Quite right prove-all. And Gehenna was used figurately to represent the lake of fire.
Hades (Greek) is synonymous with Sheol (Hebrew) as they are both different names for the same place. Consider the following scripture in Hebrew and Greek:
"For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let your Holy One see decay." - Psalms 16:10
"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay." - Acts 2
In Psalms 16:10 the word "Sheol" is used to describe the place of departed spirits. Where Peter quotes the same scripture from Psalms except that the word "Hades" is replacing "Sheol." Therefore, Sheol never refers to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, but to the place of departed spirits of the unrighteous. Below is the definition for both:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.
Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you can see from the definitions, both Sheol and Hades are referring to that same place of departed spirits, one in Hebrew and the other in Greek. The words used for grave, tomb and sepulcher are the words qeber (Hebrew) and Mnemeion (Greek). Neither Sheol nor Hades should ever be used to refer to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, but to the place of departed spirits.
Tartarus/tartaroo is used once in 2 Peter to describe the place of those angels who sinned who took wives from the progeny of men and were put into those gloomy dungeons of darkness until the great white throne judgment. IMO, I believe that it is these same angels that Jude 6 is referring to as well.
Quite right prove-all. And Gehenna was used figurately to represent the lake of fire.
Hades (Greek) is synonymous with Sheol (Hebrew) as they are both different names for the same place. Consider the following scripture in Hebrew and Greek:
"For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let your Holy One see decay." - Psalms 16:10
"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay." - Acts 2
In Psalms 16:10 the word "Sheol" is used to describe the place of departed spirits. Where Peter quotes the same scripture from Psalms except that the word "Hades" is replacing "Sheol." Therefore, Sheol never refers to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, but to the place of departed spirits of the unrighteous. Below is the definition for both:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.
Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you can see from the definitions, both Sheol and Hades are referring to that same place of departed spirits, one in Hebrew and the other in Greek. The words used for grave, tomb and sepulcher are the words qeber (Hebrew) and Mnemeion (Greek). Neither Sheol nor Hades should ever be used to refer to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, but to the place of departed spirits.
Tartarus/tartaroo is used once in 2 Peter to describe the place of those angels who sinned who took wives from the progeny of men and were put into those gloomy dungeons of darkness until the great white throne judgment. IMO, I believe that it is these same angels that Jude 6 is referring to as well.
-
1
- Show all
That is baloney Stunnedbygrace!
You're doing the same thing that you do with the rich man and Lazarus by attempting to make it a parable because it is detrimental to your belief. Now you're attempting to discredit Strong's because it is detrimental to you position. Do you see a pattern here? All you're doing is attempting to get rid of the evidence.
Strong's is an accurate and respected translation of Hebrew and Greek words and that by today's translators, not 16th century translators.
You're doing the same thing that you do with the rich man and Lazarus by attempting to make it a parable because it is detrimental to your belief. Now you're attempting to discredit Strong's because it is detrimental to you position. Do you see a pattern here? All you're doing is attempting to get rid of the evidence.
Strong's is an accurate and respected translation of Hebrew and Greek words and that by today's translators, not 16th century translators.
If Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable, then mothers up in heaven see
the writhing and hear the shrieks of their own lost children down in hell.
the "saved" go instantly, at death, to heaven while the lost leave their bodies
and are plunged into an ever-burning inferno of eternal torture.
Would you really want to spend eternity in a heaven where you would be forced to gaze
constantly upon your own loved ones who were lost, hearing them frantically screaming
to you for help you would be unable to give, gazing constantly upon their indescribable
agony, as they, on fire, are burning--burning to death-- yet never really burning up?
Would you be happy?
Yet that is exactly the kind of heaven that is being pictured by most of the churches
Did Jesus say the beggar went to heaven? He certainly did not!
He said the beggar "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."
Now what is a "bosom"? If you can find what a "bosom" is, and in this case
Abraham's bosom, you will know where the beggar was taken.
Look in your dictionary. A "bosom" is the breast of a human being, with the
arms as an enclosure; a loving embrace by the arms of one person about another;
an intimate relationship.
So Lazarus was carried into an intimate relationship with Abraham.
Lazarus here is pictured as a Gentile, who received salvation.
To the Gentile-born Galatians,....(Gal. 3:29.)
Thru Christ they become the children of Abraham. Thru faith we all become
"the children of Abraham." (Gal. 3:7.) That is an intimate relationship with
Abraham. That is being taken into Abraham's bosom!
Did God promise Abraham and his children HEAVEN? (Gen. 12:5-7, 13 :15, 15:18)
Abraham died, but has not to this day inherited the promises! (Heb. 11:8-13.)
We read in John 8:52, "Abraham is dead". At that time-- centuries after he died,
Abraham WAS DEAD! He is still dead today. When, then, is he to inherit the promises?
At the time of the RESURRECTION of the just, of course!
Jesus said Abraham would receive the promises, including eternal life,
thru the RESURRECTION: (Mat. 22:31-32.)
But Jesus spoke this about Abraham "as touching the RESURRECTION
of the dead." Abraham will be RESURRECTED.
Lazarus is to be carried there by the angels!
When do the angels come down from heaven? ( Matthew 25:31), (Mat. 24:31.)
Christ shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
together His elect from the four winds"-- out of their graves in a RESURRECTION.
the writhing and hear the shrieks of their own lost children down in hell.
the "saved" go instantly, at death, to heaven while the lost leave their bodies
and are plunged into an ever-burning inferno of eternal torture.
Would you really want to spend eternity in a heaven where you would be forced to gaze
constantly upon your own loved ones who were lost, hearing them frantically screaming
to you for help you would be unable to give, gazing constantly upon their indescribable
agony, as they, on fire, are burning--burning to death-- yet never really burning up?
Would you be happy?
Yet that is exactly the kind of heaven that is being pictured by most of the churches
Did Jesus say the beggar went to heaven? He certainly did not!
He said the beggar "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."
Now what is a "bosom"? If you can find what a "bosom" is, and in this case
Abraham's bosom, you will know where the beggar was taken.
Look in your dictionary. A "bosom" is the breast of a human being, with the
arms as an enclosure; a loving embrace by the arms of one person about another;
an intimate relationship.
So Lazarus was carried into an intimate relationship with Abraham.
Lazarus here is pictured as a Gentile, who received salvation.
To the Gentile-born Galatians,....(Gal. 3:29.)
Thru Christ they become the children of Abraham. Thru faith we all become
"the children of Abraham." (Gal. 3:7.) That is an intimate relationship with
Abraham. That is being taken into Abraham's bosom!
Did God promise Abraham and his children HEAVEN? (Gen. 12:5-7, 13 :15, 15:18)
Abraham died, but has not to this day inherited the promises! (Heb. 11:8-13.)
We read in John 8:52, "Abraham is dead". At that time-- centuries after he died,
Abraham WAS DEAD! He is still dead today. When, then, is he to inherit the promises?
At the time of the RESURRECTION of the just, of course!
Jesus said Abraham would receive the promises, including eternal life,
thru the RESURRECTION: (Mat. 22:31-32.)
But Jesus spoke this about Abraham "as touching the RESURRECTION
of the dead." Abraham will be RESURRECTED.
Lazarus is to be carried there by the angels!
When do the angels come down from heaven? ( Matthew 25:31), (Mat. 24:31.)
Christ shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
together His elect from the four winds"-- out of their graves in a RESURRECTION.
What does the event of Lazarus and the rich man have to do with mothers seeing the writhing and shrieks of their lost children? I have not seen any scripture that would state that those in heaven can see those in Hades.
When the rich man and Lazarus died, their bodies were buried and their spirits departed to Sheol/Hades. According to the scripture, this place was divided into two areas, one area where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were was a place of comfort. The other area was a place of torment in flame, both places being separated by a great chasm. Therefore, Abraham and Lazarus were not in heaven as some suppose but were also down in Sheol/Hades, except in the area of comfort which was across from the place of torment.
"In Hades, where he was in torment, he (the rich man) looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
Everyone is in the same place under the earth.
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
There was great chasm separating the place of comfort from where the rich man was, which was the place of torment in flame.
Now when the righteous die their spirits depart from the body and go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. However, those who die in their sins without Christ, they continue to go down into Hades, into that place of torment in flame, where at the end of the thousand years they will be resurrected out and will stand at the great white throne judgment.
When the rich man and Lazarus died, their bodies were buried and their spirits departed to Sheol/Hades. According to the scripture, this place was divided into two areas, one area where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were was a place of comfort. The other area was a place of torment in flame, both places being separated by a great chasm. Therefore, Abraham and Lazarus were not in heaven as some suppose but were also down in Sheol/Hades, except in the area of comfort which was across from the place of torment.
"In Hades, where he was in torment, he (the rich man) looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
Everyone is in the same place under the earth.
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
There was great chasm separating the place of comfort from where the rich man was, which was the place of torment in flame.
Now when the righteous die their spirits depart from the body and go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. However, those who die in their sins without Christ, they continue to go down into Hades, into that place of torment in flame, where at the end of the thousand years they will be resurrected out and will stand at the great white throne judgment.
Strongs is not detrimental to my position.
I have one. It is a very big and heavy tome.
I took it out of it's place on the shelf and opened it up.
I looked up the verse in question: fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
It gave me the number - 622 - for the word "destroy."
I looked it up.
The definition it gives is: to destroy fully.
I posted this.
How is this in any way discrediting Strongs?
I have one. It is a very big and heavy tome.
I took it out of it's place on the shelf and opened it up.
I looked up the verse in question: fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
It gave me the number - 622 - for the word "destroy."
I looked it up.
The definition it gives is: to destroy fully.
I posted this.
How is this in any way discrediting Strongs?
I don't have the money for the very best lexicon and 20 other sources...and no disciple for a long time had a lexicon and 20 other sources. So...I think I'll be okay with my bible and the Holy Spirit and my Strongs.
I spent hours today reading commentaries on Matthew, John and Revelation. There is no doubt in my mind, that there is a hell, and the Bible
does not teach annihilationism!
And don’t give me the line that the apostles and early Christians had no Bible, of course they didn’t, the Bible was still being written up to the 90’s, in the case of John. Yet, they got along just fine! (Except they didn’t, pretty much every epistle was written to correct doctrinal errors.)
We don’t live in primitive homes, with a fire for heat and cooking, and candles for seeing at night, because that is how the apostles lived. We accept the new discoveries in science, like the internet, and use them every day! Our world has changed, I am certain Jesus would be thrilled with the resources we have to study the Bible in the 21st century! But he would be very displeased at so much bad theology! And I am not just talking this thread!
-
1
- Show all
If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-annihilationism.177648/page-7#post-3634132
Well lets quote your own words
"In Hades, where he was in torment, he (the rich man) looked up
and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
Everyone is in the same place under the earth."
So a saved mother could see there kids tortured right here.
Lazarus and the Rich Man is a PARABLE. To whom was Christ speaking?
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth
your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
So Christ was speaking to the Pharisees. OK, how did He speak to them...
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his
disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Christ only spoke plainly to the disciples, but all else in a PARABLE
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth
your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
So Christ was speaking to the Pharisees. OK, how did He speak to them...
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his
disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Christ only spoke plainly to the disciples, but all else in a PARABLE
-
1
- Show all
Well, I disagree. I think I am okay. And if I spend hours on reading the bible and you spend hours on reading commentaries, that is your choice and my choice.
There is no doubt in your mind that there is a hell and there is no doubt in my mind that there is a hell, so we're both okay there.
As for annihilationism (and by that I mean not whatever any other annihilationist thinks but what I think regarding it, because if you're going to slap labels on me, at least do me the courtesy of actually listening to what I think, not what you think all annihilationists think), God has every right to be more lenient or to pour out the fullest measure of His wrath, on whoever He cares to. I absolutely leave that to Him. You pecking at me is not going to get me to pronounce judgement on men that they will all be forever in torment. What I read doesn't seem to suggest it for all. IF I am wrong and God pours out the very fullest measure of His wrath on exactly every man you say He will, He will forgive me for not understanding what I have read perfectly. But judgement and passing sentences more lenient and more severe is something I WILL NOT DO, so you can give up on that - I fear God more than I do your sharp tongue!
Please read more carefully! Because I didn't say they had no bible - I said they didn't have what you claim is absolutely necessary - the very best lexicon and at least 20 other sources. They had the OT and a growing body of letters from the apostles which they treasured, copied and passed around.
I use the internet too! And I have electricity!
Maybe the reason you think my theology is so bad is because you are insisting things about me that aren't true - like that I don't believe in hell, that I refuse all science and advances, and that I don't read anything other than the bible. (Reading the old saints is vastly superior to me than commentaries but we each have our own style.)
I've never been on the receiving end of one of your stern, tongue slapping diatribes. I feel like a member of the club now. Do I get a pin?
By the way, I love you angela.
And if I spend hours on reading the bible and you spend hours on reading commentaries, that is your choice and my choice. There is no doubt in your mind that there is a hell and there is no doubt in my mind that there is a hell, so we're both okay there.
As for annihilationism (and by that I mean not whatever any other annihilationist thinks but what I think regarding it, because if you're going to slap labels on me, at least do me the courtesy of actually listening to what I think, not what you think all annihilationists think), God has every right to be more lenient or to pour out the fullest measure of His wrath, on whoever He cares to. I absolutely leave that to Him. You pecking at me is not going to get me to pronounce judgement on men that they will all be forever in torment. What I read doesn't seem to suggest it for all. IF I am wrong and God pours out the very fullest measure of His wrath on exactly every man you say He will, He will forgive me for not understanding what I have read perfectly. But judgement and passing sentences more lenient and more severe is something I WILL NOT DO, so you can give up on that - I fear God more than I do your sharp tongue!
Please read more carefully!
Because I didn't say they had no bible - I said they didn't have what you claim is absolutely necessary - the very best lexicon and at least 20 other sources. They had the OT and a growing body of letters from the apostles which they treasured, copied and passed around.I use the internet too! And I have electricity!
Maybe the reason you think my theology is so bad is because you are insisting things about me that aren't true - like that I don't believe in hell, that I refuse all science and advances, and that I don't read anything other than the bible. (Reading the old saints is vastly superior to me than commentaries but we each have our own style.)
I've never been on the receiving end of one of your stern, tongue slapping diatribes. I feel like a member of the club now. Do I get a pin?
By the way, I love you angela.