The Heresy of Annihilationism

[Stunnedbygrace]

Strong's is not a good concordance to use. It is a backwards translation from KJV. So, you are getting 16th century definitions and theology. In 400 years, we have learned a lot - like that appolumi means "ruin, destroy" (BDAG) NOT "destroy completely."

That is why I so utterly detest theology by word searches. You need the very best lexicon, but you need about 20 other sources.The Greek exegetical commentary I mentioned, for each passage, he has over a 100 different sources, that he has read, and looked for agreements and disagreements. He quotes them, and tries to flesh things out, but without saying his own opinion. That is the kind of sources we need to look at, not Strong's or some internet teacher, quoting Strong's or something else.

I know that Brown-Driver-Briggs BDB the top Hebrew lexicon can be found on-line. I have a copy on my desktop on my old computer. Not sure about BDAG. I'm getting Accordance, I believe, with my course, which has a lot of good resources.

Well...I figure if a man can only kill my temporary body but God can kill both my body AND my soul, then that's a pretty total destruction. If a man kills my body, I will get a new one from God but what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That is why I so utterly detest theology by word searches. You need the very best lexicon, but you need about 20 other sources.The Greek exegetical commentary I mentioned, for each passage, he has over a 100 different sources, that he has read, and looked for agreements and disagreements. He quotes them, and tries to flesh things out, but without saying his own opinion. That is the kind of sources we need to look at, not Strong's or some internet teacher, quoting Strong's or something else.

I don't have the money for the very best lexicon and 20 other sources...and no disciple for a long time had a lexicon and 20 other sources. So...I think I'll be okay with my bible and the Holy Spirit and my Strongs.

 

[shrume]

I don't have the money for the very best lexicon and 20 other sources...and no disciple for a long time had a lexicon and 20 other sources. So...I think I'll be okay with my bible and the Holy Spirit and my Strongs.

While research tools and books can certainly help at times, it's not necessary to have a $2000 biblical library to be able to read and understand the Bible. Plus, with a bit of digging, there's a lot of info available for free on the internet.

 

[Laish]

I don't have the money for the very best lexicon and 20 other sources...and no disciple for a long time had a lexicon and 20 other sources. So...I think I'll be okay with my bible and the Holy Spirit and my Strongs.

Hey the two resources Angela mentioned are available for free in some Bible study apps and amazon has a huge selection of used Bible lexicons like BDB and BDAG in excellent condition. For half off list . Also used book stores have some real gems . I purchased stuff for about half if not less than most would. It takes patience but it is really worth it .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

While research tools and books can certainly help at times, it's not necessary to have a $2000 biblical library to be able to read and understand the Bible. Plus, with a bit of digging, there's a lot of info available for free on the internet.

Yep e-Sword app has about 700$ worth of tools for free it cool .
Their are other apps that are probably better out there too .

Blessings
Bill

 

[Deade]

Strong's is not a good concordance to use. It is a backwards translation from KJV. So, you are getting 16th century definitions and theology. In 400 years, we have learned a lot - like that appolumi means "ruin, destroy" (BDAG) NOT "destroy completely."

That is why I so utterly detest theology by word searches. You need the very best lexicon, but you need about 20 other sources.The Greek exegetical commentary I mentioned, for each passage, he has over a 100 different sources, that he has read, and looked for agreements and disagreements. He quotes them, and tries to flesh things out, but without saying his own opinion. That is the kind of sources we need to look at, not Strong's or some internet teacher, quoting Strong's or something else.

I know that Brown-Driver-Briggs BDB the top Hebrew lexicon can be found on-line. I have a copy on my desktop on my old computer. Not sure about BDAG. I'm getting Accordance, I believe, with my course, which has a lot of good resources.

Angela, could you weigh the following scriptures without deducing Rev. 20:10 is nothing more than a memorial, like we have films of cleaning out the holocaust death camps. Somehow these scenes are preserved. File, tape or digitally, I am sure we don't need to give God an idea on how to store data. The same in Mark 9 where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

Now for Rev. 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The last "are" in that sentence was added by translators for ease of reading. You could read "where the beast and false profit were cast." What happens when you toss a live person into fire, they die! Even Satan will not be tormented forever.

Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.

You are the Greek expert, how do we parse Rev. 20:10 with Eze. 28:19?

 

[prove-all]

(9) Hell is a lake of fire into which the wicked will be cast alive forever (Rev 19:20; 20:15).

Hell here G86 is not a lake of fire, hell is thrown [into] the lake of fire

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hell G86 were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death G2288.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And in a greek lexicon on studylight.org, this is what a lookup of the word "perish" gives:

Bible Lexicons
Old / New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary
Search for 'perish'

8 entries​

#Original WordTranslation
TransliterationPhonetic Spelling

599

ἀποθνήσκω​

dies, be slain, be dead, dying, put, die, mortal, perished, dead, death, perish, lie a dying, died, be at the point of death
apothnḗskōap-oth-nace'-ko

622

ἀπόλλυμι​

dying, perished, bring, perishable, much, destroyed, put to death, destroy, lost, perish, killed, be lost, ruined, end, perishing, misc, passed away, loses, lose, perishes
apóllymiap-ol'-loo-mee

684

ἀπώλεια​

destruction, damnable, pernicious, destructive, perish, to die, wasted, waste, perdition
apṓleiaap-o'-li-a

853

ἀφανίζω​

neglect, perish, disfigure, vanish away, corrupt, destroy, vanishes away, destroys
aphanízōaf-an-id'-zo

1311

διαφθείρω​

decaying, destroyed, depraved, perish, corrupt, destroy, destroys
diaphtheírōdee-af-thi'-ro

2704

καταφθείρω​

utterly perish, depraved, corrupt
kataphtheírōkat-af-thi'-ro

4881

συναπόλλυμι​

perish along, perish with
synapóllymisoon-ap-ol'-loo-mee

5356

φθορά​

corruption, destruction, perishable, to perish, perish, killed, destroy
phthoráfthor-ah'

8 entries​

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It depends on which Greek word is being translated, the basic words being Apollumi, apoleia and olethros, not of which infer annihilation or extinction.

The word hell can be traced back only so far as the anglo-saxon word "helle" or "helan"
and it's definition is that of a "hidden place"

There are four words for hell and the translators wrongly used hell each and every
occasion that the words - Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, and Tartarus, were used in the bible.

Gehenna, was the garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem,
where refuse was burned continually.

Quite right prove-all. And Gehenna was used figurately to represent the lake of fire.

Hades, is a greek word for hidden place

Sheol, is a Hebrew word used for the grave

Hades (Greek) is synonymous with Sheol (Hebrew) as they are both different names for the same place. Consider the following scripture in Hebrew and Greek:

"For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let your Holy One see decay." - Psalms 16:10

"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay." - Acts 2

In Psalms 16:10 the word "Sheol" is used to describe the place of departed spirits. Where Peter quotes the same scripture from Psalms except that the word "Hades" is replacing "Sheol." Therefore, Sheol never refers to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, but to the place of departed spirits of the unrighteous. Below is the definition for both:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:

hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you can see from the definitions, both Sheol and Hades are referring to that same place of departed spirits, one in Hebrew and the other in Greek. The words used for grave, tomb and sepulcher are the words qeber (Hebrew) and Mnemeion (Greek). Neither Sheol nor Hades should ever be used to refer to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, but to the place of departed spirits.

Tartarus, was used by Homer, when describing the subterranean prisons
where the "gods" were imprisoned.

Tartarus/tartaroo is used once in 2 Peter to describe the place of those angels who sinned who took wives from the progeny of men and were put into those gloomy dungeons of darkness until the great white throne judgment. IMO, I believe that it is these same angels that Jude 6 is referring to as well.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well...I figure if a man can only kill my temporary body but God can kill both my body AND my soul, then that's a pretty total destruction. If a man kills my body, I will get a new one from God but what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

That is baloney Stunnedbygrace!

You're doing the same thing that you do with the rich man and Lazarus by attempting to make it a parable because it is detrimental to your belief. Now you're attempting to discredit Strong's because it is detrimental to you position. Do you see a pattern here? All you're doing is attempting to get rid of the evidence.

Strong's is an accurate and respected translation of Hebrew and Greek words and that by today's translators, not 16th century translators.

 

[prove-all]

If Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable, then mothers up in heaven see
the writhing and hear the shrieks of their own lost children down in hell.

the "saved" go instantly, at death, to heaven while the lost leave their bodies
and are plunged into an ever-burning inferno of eternal torture.

Would you really want to spend eternity in a heaven where you would be forced to gaze
constantly upon your own loved ones who were lost, hearing them frantically screaming
to you for help you would be unable to give, gazing constantly upon their indescribable
agony, as they, on fire, are burning--burning to death-- yet never really burning up?

Would you be happy?

Yet that is exactly the kind of heaven that is being pictured by most of the churches

Did Jesus say the beggar went to heaven? He certainly did not!
He said the beggar "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."

Now what is a "bosom"? If you can find what a "bosom" is, and in this case
Abraham's bosom, you will know where the beggar was taken.

Look in your dictionary. A "bosom" is the breast of a human being, with the
arms as an enclosure; a loving embrace by the arms of one person about another;
an intimate relationship.

So Lazarus was carried into an intimate relationship with Abraham.
Lazarus here is pictured as a Gentile, who received salvation.
To the Gentile-born Galatians,....(Gal. 3:29.)

Thru Christ they become the children of Abraham. Thru faith we all become
"the children of Abraham." (Gal. 3:7.) That is an intimate relationship with
Abraham. That is being taken into Abraham's bosom!

Did God promise Abraham and his children HEAVEN? (Gen. 12:5-7, 13 :15, 15:18)
Abraham died, but has not to this day inherited the promises! (Heb. 11:8-13.)

We read in John 8:52, "Abraham is dead". At that time-- centuries after he died,
Abraham WAS DEAD! He is still dead today. When, then, is he to inherit the promises?

At the time of the RESURRECTION of the just, of course!

Jesus said Abraham would receive the promises, including eternal life,
thru the RESURRECTION: (Mat. 22:31-32.)

But Jesus spoke this about Abraham "as touching the RESURRECTION
of the dead." Abraham will be RESURRECTED.

Lazarus is to be carried there by the angels!
When do the angels come down from heaven? ( Matthew 25:31), (Mat. 24:31.)

Christ shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
together His elect from the four winds"-- out of their graves in a RESURRECTION.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable, then mothers up in heaven see
the writhing and hear the shrieks of their own lost children down in hell.

What does the event of Lazarus and the rich man have to do with mothers seeing the writhing and shrieks of their lost children? I have not seen any scripture that would state that those in heaven can see those in Hades.

When the rich man and Lazarus died, their bodies were buried and their spirits departed to Sheol/Hades. According to the scripture, this place was divided into two areas, one area where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were was a place of comfort. The other area was a place of torment in flame, both places being separated by a great chasm. Therefore, Abraham and Lazarus were not in heaven as some suppose but were also down in Sheol/Hades, except in the area of comfort which was across from the place of torment.

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he (the rich man) looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

Everyone is in the same place under the earth.

"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

There was great chasm separating the place of comfort from where the rich man was, which was the place of torment in flame.

Now when the righteous die their spirits depart from the body and go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. However, those who die in their sins without Christ, they continue to go down into Hades, into that place of torment in flame, where at the end of the thousand years they will be resurrected out and will stand at the great white throne judgment.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That is baloney Stunnedbygrace!

You're doing the same thing that you do with the rich man and Lazarus by attempting to make it a parable because it is detrimental to your belief. Now you're attempting to discredit Strong's because it is detrimental to you position. Do you see a pattern here? All you're doing is attempting to get rid of the evidence.

Strong's is an accurate and respected translation of Hebrew and Greek words and that by today's translators, not 16th century translators.

Strongs is not detrimental to my position.
I have one. It is a very big and heavy tome.
I took it out of it's place on the shelf and opened it up.
I looked up the verse in question: fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
It gave me the number - 622 - for the word "destroy."
I looked it up.
The definition it gives is: to destroy fully.
I posted this.
How is this in any way discrediting Strongs?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And you haven't read anything I've written if you think I've insisted that story must be a parable.
I've either fallen down the rabbit hole or you have utterly confused me with some other poster.

 

[Angela53510]

I don't have the money for the very best lexicon and 20 other sources...and no disciple for a long time had a lexicon and 20 other sources. So...I think I'll be okay with my bible and the Holy Spirit and my Strongs.

But you aren’t ok! You have some bad theology, which if you had more resources to refer to, you might change.
I spent hours today reading commentaries on Matthew, John and Revelation. There is no doubt in my mind, that there is a hell, and the Bible
does not teach annihilationism!

And don’t give me the line that the apostles and early Christians had no Bible, of course they didn’t, the Bible was still being written up to the 90’s, in the case of John. Yet, they got along just fine! (Except they didn’t, pretty much every epistle was written to correct doctrinal errors.)

We don’t live in primitive homes, with a fire for heat and cooking, and candles for seeing at night, because that is how the apostles lived. We accept the new discoveries in science, like the internet, and use them every day! Our world has changed, I am certain Jesus would be thrilled with the resources we have to study the Bible in the 21st century! But he would be very displeased at so much bad theology! And I am not just talking this thread!

 

[Angela53510]

Angela, could you weigh the following scriptures without deducing Rev. 20:10 is nothing more than a memorial, like we have films of cleaning out the holocaust death camps. Somehow these scenes are preserved. File, tape or digitally, I am sure we don't need to give God an idea on how to store data. The same in Mark 9 where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

Now for Rev. 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The last "are" in that sentence was added by translators for ease of reading. You could read "where the beast and false profit were cast." What happens when you toss a live person into fire, they die! Even Satan will not be tormented forever.

Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.

You are the Greek expert, how do we parse Rev. 20:10 with Eze. 28:19?

Sorry, I may understand Greek, but I haven’t a clue how to read King James English. I’m on my phone, my answer will have to wait till tomorrow when I am
in my computer!

 

[prove-all]

Now when the righteous die their spirits depart from the body
and go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord.

If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-annihilationism.177648/page-7#post-3634132

What does the event of Lazarus and the rich man have to do with mothers seeing
the writhing and shrieks of their lost children? I have not seen any scripture that
would state that those in heaven can see those in Hades.

Well lets quote your own words

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he (the rich man) looked up
and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

Everyone is in the same place under the earth."

So a saved mother could see there kids tortured right here.

 

[CS1]

Yes eternal punishment never to rise to new spirit life (dead)

It would seem hell is described as a living work of suffering. It can be seen in the historically accurate parable of Jonah used to represent the Son of man in the garden where Christ began working drinking the cup of wrath indicated by sweating as if it was literal blood , the pouring out of His Spirit as described in Joel .

No dead sacrifices. like the sacrifices used in ceremonial laws. Ceremonial laws are used as a parable to represent the suffering of Christ beforehand .The literal corrupted blood must be poured out at the feet of the alter as it was which the of the Son of man .(corruption cannot inherit incorruption) the literal blood returned to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed from and the Spirit of Christ of His own volition will returned to the father.

Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord. And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.Jonah 2:1-10

The belly of hell is the same kind of metaphor as the heart of the earth.(above ground suffering)

very good point

 

[prove-all]

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a PARABLE. To whom was Christ speaking?

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth
your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

So Christ was speaking to the Pharisees. OK, how did He speak to them...

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his
disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Christ only spoke plainly to the disciples, but all else in a PARABLE

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But you aren’t ok! You have some bad theology, which if you had more resources to refer to, you might change.
I spent hours today reading commentaries on Matthew, John and Revelation. There is no doubt in my mind, that there is a hell, and the Bible
does not teach annihilationism!

And don’t give me the line that the apostles and early Christians had no Bible, of course they didn’t, the Bible was still being written up to the 90’s, in the case of John. Yet, they got along just fine! (Except they didn’t, pretty much every epistle was written to correct doctrinal errors.)

We don’t live in primitive homes, with a fire for heat and cooking, and candles for seeing at night, because that is how the apostles lived. We accept the new discoveries in science, like the internet, and use them every day! Our world has changed, I am certain Jesus would be thrilled with the resources we have to study the Bible in the 21st century! But he would be very displeased at so much bad theology! And I am not just talking this thread!

Well, I disagree. I think I am okay. And if I spend hours on reading the bible and you spend hours on reading commentaries, that is your choice and my choice.

There is no doubt in your mind that there is a hell and there is no doubt in my mind that there is a hell, so we're both okay there.

As for annihilationism (and by that I mean not whatever any other annihilationist thinks but what I think regarding it, because if you're going to slap labels on me, at least do me the courtesy of actually listening to what I think, not what you think all annihilationists think), God has every right to be more lenient or to pour out the fullest measure of His wrath, on whoever He cares to. I absolutely leave that to Him. You pecking at me is not going to get me to pronounce judgement on men that they will all be forever in torment. What I read doesn't seem to suggest it for all. IF I am wrong and God pours out the very fullest measure of His wrath on exactly every man you say He will, He will forgive me for not understanding what I have read perfectly. But judgement and passing sentences more lenient and more severe is something I WILL NOT DO, so you can give up on that - I fear God more than I do your sharp tongue!

Please read more carefully! Because I didn't say they had no bible - I said they didn't have what you claim is absolutely necessary - the very best lexicon and at least 20 other sources. They had the OT and a growing body of letters from the apostles which they treasured, copied and passed around.

I use the internet too! And I have electricity!

Maybe the reason you think my theology is so bad is because you are insisting things about me that aren't true - like that I don't believe in hell, that I refuse all science and advances, and that I don't read anything other than the bible. (Reading the old saints is vastly superior to me than commentaries but we each have our own style.)

I've never been on the receiving end of one of your stern, tongue slapping diatribes. I feel like a member of the club now. Do I get a pin?

By the way, I love you angela.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And you haven't read anything I've written if you think I've insisted that story must be a parable.
I've either fallen down the rabbit hole or you have utterly confused me with some other poster.

In fact, on further thinking, for quite a while in my posts, I was saying, whenever I referred to it: the parable/story or the story/parable to try to convey that I didn't think it was a point of contention that needed to be argued about, honestly.