the health gospel..?

[studentoftheword]

Do we believe Scripture ???????

Greek word for --------infirmities

Strong's Concordance
astheneia: weakness, frailty
Usage: want of strength, weakness, illness, suffering, calamity, frailty.

asthéneia ("weakness, sickness") refers to an ailment that deprives someone of enjoying or accomplishing what they would like to do. 769 (asthéneia) focuses on the handicaps that go with the weakness.
feebleness (of mind or body); by implication, malady; morally, frailty -- disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.

The Greek word for ------took -------here

Strong's Concordance
lambanó: to take
to take in order to carry away: without the notion of violence, τάς ἀσθενείας, i. e. to remove, take away, Matthew 8:17


Greek word for------- bore

Strong's Concordance
qur: to bore
break down, cast out, destroy

A primitive root; to trench; by implication, to throw forth; also (denominative from qiyr) to wall up, whether literal (to build a wall) or figurative (to estop) -- break down, cast out, destroy,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I ask
What is it that we don't understand or believe about this Scripture ---

The Greek word for Salvation is Sozo and Soteria

Strong's Concordance
sótéria: deliverance, salvation
rescue or safety (physically or morally) -- deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.


Strong's Concordance
sózó: to save
Usage: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.
cured, made well, (literally or figuratively) -- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

universally, τινα, one (from injury or peril); to save a suffering one (from perishing), e. g. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health:


be whole.----------Greek meaning

Lexicon
holos: whole, complete
where all the parts are present and working as a whole – i.e. as the total, which is greater than the mere sum of the parts.


Question ====

if your sick are all parts present working as a whole ??????-----I don't think so -------

I say -------- some parts that are unwell are thrown into disorder and unwellness and------so your not Physically complete ----or whole


====So there is no HEALTH GOSPEL -----Health comes from Christ's Atonement

So believe as you like------- the Scripture says what it says -------

PRESENTS TENSE HERE Folks ___WE ARE Healed ----you are already healed when you accept Jesus as your Lord and SAaviour

A Ripley's ---Believe IT -------OR NOT ------all up to us ---

 

[CarriePie]

If there's a possible way to offend you it seems I am one who can do that and do it with every post. I hate to even reply due to I might write something else wrong. But I started this and will stick it out and finish it.

It's just some of the things we've been told while traveling through the State of Oklahoma. When I stop for fuel or something to drink/eat I tend to ask the people around me questions. A couple of times I felt comfortable to say I feel a heaviness in this area or does the atmosphere around here always seem to be this way? And the typical response has been disturbed Burial Grounds. I've even went as far to ask do you believe that? And was told, Oh yes I do. Since I am not from there but made that trip 50 times or more I just take them at their word.

I'm just responding with my own experience here as a lifelong Okie with deep Okie roots. I even grew up on the Osage Reservation...near burial grounds! Lots of rich culture and history here. I embrace it. I've never felt a heavy feeling.
Even if there was a heavy feeling, I'll still stay here due to it being a very gun friendly state.

Also, I've know of people here who will tell outsiders things they want to hear or act in a way that they think people want to see. For example, a close friend of mine in high school told me an amusing story. Her father is full blood Osage. A stern looking man with black hair and brown skin. He was in the store shopping one day when he overheard a family from the UK whispering about him. "There's an Indian!" So, he stood tall and crossed his arms and put a very intense, stern look on his face. Their eyes became wide and they gasped lol. So, hey, maybe some folks here just like to play with folks and get their imaginations going

 

[Cameron143]

From the moment I can remember as a wee tiny boy, being in my Grandfather's church and then my Dad's and so forth. I was privy to be on a lot of hospital visits, home visits, elderly visits, etc. I cannot remember meeting a true Saint of God who had memory issues or mental illness or things we associate to extremely old. They mostly died in their sleep or on their death bed looking forward to be with Jesus while letting go of their will to live here on earth. To me, that's a true Testimony of God having Favor for His children.

I can't remember who said it, but it went something like this...God's people die well.

 

[posthuman]

Do we believe Scripture ???????

of course.

Matthew 8:16-18​

When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: ​

"He Himself took our infirmities ​

and bore our sicknesses."​

And when Jesus saw great multitudes about Him, He gave a command to depart to the other side.​

​

Greek has a different verbal tense for an ongoing action and one that has been completed.

which tense is "fulfilled" in this passage, i wonder?

 

[posthuman]

which tense is "fulfilled" in this passage, i wonder?

well. it's aortist. so it does not indicate a continuous, ongoing action, but one simple action that took place in the past.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I'm just responding with my own experience here as a lifelong Okie with deep Okie roots. I even grew up on the Osage Reservation...near burial grounds! Lots of rich culture and history here. I embrace it. I've never felt a heavy feeling.
Even if there was a heavy feeling, I'll still stay here due to it being a very gun friendly state.

Also, I've know of people here who will tell outsiders things they want to hear or act in a way that they think people want to see. For example, a close friend of mine in high school told me an amusing story. Her father is full blood Osage. A stern looking man with black hair and brown skin. He was in the store shopping one day when he overheard a family from the UK whispering about him. "There's an Indian!" So, he stood tall and crossed his arms and put a very intense, stern look on his face. Their eyes became wide and they gasped lol. So, hey, maybe some folks here just like to play with folks and get their imaginations going

That's a great fact to know. Like I said, I could only take their word for it lol But I love the fact your friend's Dad did what he did. That is pretty cool actually

Also, I am an avid hunter. Been hunting in many States and in some Nations. I love my guns like you do

 

[cv5]

is it Biblical to claim that 'real' or 'strong' or 'competent' Christians will never get sick or be subject to any disease?

we're all familiar with the prosperity gospel and the "wealth" arguments of it are trivially destroyed. but what about the "health" part?


discuss

Were those who were living vastly extended life-spans before the flood vastly more righteous than people today?
Not that you would notice. Likely quite to the contrary. At least towards the termination stage.

God radically reduced lifespans for a very specific reason: to limit/restrain sin. Both its expression and its results.

This is undoubtedly an act of mercy. God is always loving, merciful, just and wise.

 

[stilllearning]

I have always found you to be very eloquent, and what you describe here, both the before and after, is quite poignant. And I am certainly glad you have returned to the fold. Those days of yore sound wonderful. I hope you can find such a church family home again...

Thanks again for just another time you respond with kindness thank you

 

[stilllearning]

You wouldn't be connected to the Calvary Chapel Movement since you mentioned the Jesus Movement btw? I have some great friends who are Pastors in that Movement. Interesting way they do things by going through the Bible from beginning to end.

I have met Skip Heitzig and Ed Taylor and couple others.

Yes, no. Not formally as we were not a off branch. I live in Colorado Springs and like most areas it is unique in it's make up. We have Fort Carson, the Air Force Academy, Peterson Air Force Base, Space Command, Space Force, Shriver Air Force Base, and NORAD. So we are heavy on military and so it makes our town transitory.

So growing up folks would come to our town from different areas and truly through this we would be introduced to other churches across our country. So our Pastor would invite many leaders across the country to come speak to us and we would pick up various methods. Such as we were heavy on using the coffee house to witness to counterculture, like hippies. They would go downtown to Acacia Park which at that time was a place that was heavy with the drug culture.

So more or less we were just heavily influenced by other churches and movements across the country and just integrated different things to more or less take the gospel out on a mass basis to just blanket the whole area and be able to be all things to all people.

Like my dad for example he headed one of the door to door ministries. So he would actually keep records of home, not home. So they could go back in a week or two or later and make sure they knocked on all doors and spoke with everyone. Being we are a military town soon as they finished a sub-division would turn around and do it again since there might be new folks that had moved in.

Even though he was not Calvary Chapel, Chuck Missler had to be one of my favorites to hear which of course we learnt of him through them.

 

[cv5]

Yes, no. Not formally as we were not a off branch. I live in Colorado Springs and like most areas it is unique in it's make up. We have Fort Carson, the Air Force Academy, Peterson Air Force Base, Space Command, Space Force, Shriver Air Force Base, and NORAD. So we are heavy on military and so it makes our town transitory.

So growing up folks would come to our town from different areas and truly through this we would be introduced to other churches across our country. So our Pastor would invite many leaders across the country to come speak to us and we would pick up various methods. Such as we were heavy on using the coffee house to witness to counterculture, like hippies. They would go downtown to Acacia Park which at that time was a place that was heavy with the drug culture.

So more or less we were just heavily influenced by other churches and movements across the country and just integrated different things to more or less take the gospel out on a mass basis to just blanket the whole area and be able to be all things to all people.

Like my dad for example he headed one of the door to door ministries. So he would actually keep records of home, not home. So they could go back in a week or two or later and make sure they knocked on all doors and spoke with everyone. Being we are a military town soon as they finished a sub-division would turn around and do it again since there might be new folks that had moved in.

Even though he was not Calvary Chapel, Chuck Missler had to be one of my favorites to hear which of course we learnt of him through them.

I listened to probably hundreds of hours of sermons by Joe Focht of CC Philly. Great content, useful and Biblically sound teaching and a wonderful down to earth pastor. Never any brow- beating, psychological manipulation/battery or angling for money. Great guy. I admire him.

And I was listening to Chuck Missler's tape series waaaay back in the nineties. Had a buddy in the design office that I traded Chuck's tapes with. Though I now think Chuck is Biblically off base in various ways, I do think that he was the spark that ignited many flames to the service of Christ. Possibly mine own as well......

 

[TheLearner]

kenneth copeland blows covid away

https://drjimsebt.com/2023/03/27/kenneth-copeland-gets-a-pacemaker/
https://www.facebook.com/TheRRG.tv/...opeland-megachurch-messiness/708692718122704/

https://www.bible.ca/tongues-miracles-fake-pentecostal.htm

 

[TheLearner]

That too is destroyed and one way to show the Word of faith adherents that it is destroyed is to go to 1 Peter 2:24-25. "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you are healed." They latch on to this verse to prove your guaranteed physical healing. No w look at vs25, "For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guarding of your souls."

The context is obvious, it has nothing to do with physically healing. As sheep we are not straying away from getting healed physically. By His wounds we have been healed spiritually.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The best way to handle a WOF person is to drive to a Hospital, get out of the car to go in. I did this many times, they would ask, are we visiting anyone? I say no, we are going in to heal everyone. They often run away or disappear.

 

[stilllearning]

I listened to probably hundreds of hours of sermons by Joe Focht of CC Philly. Great content, useful and Biblically sound teaching and a wonderful down to earth pastor. Never any brow- beating, psychological manipulation/battery or angling for money. Great guy. I admire him.

And I was listening to Chuck Missler's tape series waaaay back in the nineties. Had a buddy in the design office that I traded Chuck's tapes with. Though I now think Chuck is Biblically off base in various ways, I do think that he was the spark that ignited many flames to the service of Christ. Possibly mine own as well......

Yeah I have to agree. There are things that today I sometimes don't agree with that I learnt yesterday. However, for me personally the best teachers or preachers I have heard are the ones that have turned me into a Berean and ignited a hunger in me that lasts even today. So that I find I am on a consistent basis still searching out the truth and scriptures to learn, to understand, and most importantly to apply.

Even some bad ones. I once from a senior NCO had gained a nugget of wisdom. A number of us NCO's were in a complain session. When a senior one just said aloud "Remember you can learn as much from a bad leader as you can a good one". Which has really proven true, these days by listening to a message, looking at the fruit that said message produces, keeps me from wasting my time down a path that produces nothing. So there truly is a lot you can learn from a bad teacher or leader.

 

[studentoftheword]

Do we believe the Word --who is Jesus Himself who is God -------it can only be---- YES or NO -----

Jesus said your either With Me or Against Me ---there is no believing some Scripture and Not others Folks ---you either Believe ALL the Scripture -----or you Don't Believe any of it ------Period

All Born Again People are under the Blessings of God ------Now --In the Old Testament there are Prophecies of Good Health -----Jesus hadn't come yet ---the Curse was in place in the Old Testament and sickness ans disease was part of the Curse --it is not part of the Blessing ------This world and unbelievers are still under the Curse of the law ---but not individual people who are Born Again -----Jesus brought back the Blessings for all who receive Him ------


From Bible Study Tools

Bible Verse about Health - Scriptures on Well-Being

Through scripture, we can find God’s guidance to good health, as it is considered of high importance. These Bible verses show us God’s rules for good physical, mental, and spiritual health.

Deuteronomy 7:12-15------verse 15---will keep===== is a promise

12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.

13 He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land—your grain, new wine and olive oil—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you.

14 You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor will any of your livestock be without young.

15 The LORD will keep you free from every disease.

He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you.
Read Chapter

Jeremiah 33:6
6 “ ‘Nevertheless, I will bring health and healing to it; I will heal my people and will let them enjoy abundant peace and security.
Read Chapter


I say ---
Pay attention to this Scripture here -----Who is the Word ????---Jesus ----
can Jesus heal us ??????????-----

Our Physical Healings comes through our Faith In Jesus who is our Healer ----and what His Atonement from the Stripes on His Back accomplished for us ------

By His Stripes We ARE HEALED -------


Proverbs 4:20-22

20 My son, pay attention to what I say; turn your ear to my words.

21 Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart;

22 for they are life to those who find them and health to one’s whole body.
Read Chapter


Exodus 15:26

26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.”
Read Chapter

Jeremiah 30:17

For I will restore you to health

And I will heal you of your wounds,’ declares the Lord,
‘Because they have called you an outcast, saying:
“It is Zion; no one cares for her.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Allergies


The Old Testament is full of Physically Healing Prophecies in Scriptures ----for the coming of the One who is our Healer ----Jesus Christ ----

Psalm 103:3

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes, no. Not formally as we were not a off branch. I live in Colorado Springs and like most areas it is unique in it's make up. We have Fort Carson, the Air Force Academy, Peterson Air Force Base, Space Command, Space Force, Shriver Air Force Base, and NORAD. So we are heavy on military and so it makes our town transitory.

So growing up folks would come to our town from different areas and truly through this we would be introduced to other churches across our country. So our Pastor would invite many leaders across the country to come speak to us and we would pick up various methods. Such as we were heavy on using the coffee house to witness to counterculture, like hippies. They would go downtown to Acacia Park which at that time was a place that was heavy with the drug culture.

So more or less we were just heavily influenced by other churches and movements across the country and just integrated different things to more or less take the gospel out on a mass basis to just blanket the whole area and be able to be all things to all people.

Like my dad for example he headed one of the door to door ministries. So he would actually keep records of home, not home. So they could go back in a week or two or later and make sure they knocked on all doors and spoke with everyone. Being we are a military town soon as they finished a sub-division would turn around and do it again since there might be new folks that had moved in.

Even though he was not Calvary Chapel, Chuck Missler had to be one of my favorites to hear which of course we learnt of him through them.

Your area has a variety of Calvary Chapel churches and Pastor Al Pittman and Eric Cartier. I listen to them and others in that area when I am traveling and in Colorado they're on radio station fm 89.7

 

[stilllearning]

Your area has a variety of Calvary Chapel churches and Pastor Al Pittman and Eric Cartier. I listen to them and others in that area when I am traveling and in Colorado they're on radio station fm 89.7

Yeah brother, I am sorry when I was replying I had every intention to say yes I have visited ones here and on occasion will travel up to South Denver. So my apologies I get typing then forget many times what all I was gonna type.

 

[maxwel]

I am Seneca. So, I don't know what this talk of influence by ancient Native Americans is? Not all Native Americans were/are the same. Some tribes were warring tribes, some were peaceful and religious, etc. None were savages.

The government moved the Seneca and other great tribes here. Even so, today I praise the Lord that I'm here! And I praise the Lord for ancient Native Americans!

"None were savages."


CarriePie, your post gave me some things to think about, so here are my thoughts.
Hope you have a great weekend.



Although it's true the U.S. government broke treaties with some of the Native Americans, just as leaders today still sink to ignorant and unconscionable things, I don't think we should allow those past events to reshape our understanding of religion and ethics. The past beliefs and actions of those tribes are not suddenly above all reproach because they were sometimes victims.

We should try to resist any modernist tendency to rewrite history whenever we feel bad about something in the past.

Many Native American tribes had complex, though pagan, systems of belief - often mixing nature worship with a kind of pantheism. That sort of belief system, by definition, is pagan. So they were indeed pagan. And as far as the word "savagery" - most human ethnic groups, at some time in their past, resorted to savagery, and we still find it in the world today. So paganism and savagery, these parts of human history which many want to distance from certain groups, are just a part of human history; they are still part of the world today; and they were certainly a part of many ancient native tribes... though we know some tribes were peaceful. History is history. Humanity is humanity. Things are just what they are. Let's just be realistic about these things, and not feel a pull to rewrite history.

There was paganism, as far as I'm aware, in all of the tribes, and savagery in at least some of them.
I don't think that makes ancient tribes particularly worse than the rest of humanity... but it does remind us they were just part of fallen humanity. They weren't magical, or above reproach. They were just fallen people, like everyone else.
(Were they mistreated? Yes. But they also mistreated others. Some of the tribes conquered, stole land, murdered, raped, tortured, terrorized, and took slaves. They participated in the same good, and bad, as the rest of humanity.)

They were just people.

They warred with each other, we warred with them, they warred with us, and people lied to each other and broke their promises.

This is what fallen humans do.

Human history is a history of fallen creatures treating each other badly, ignoring their creator, living in sin, making a mess of everything... and sometimes.... sometimes getting things right.



Let's just allow history to be what it is, and resist our modern tendencies to make it otherwise.

God Bless.

.

 

[CarriePie]

"None were savages."


CarriePie, your post gave me some things to think about, so here are my thoughts.
Hope you have a great weekend.



Although it's true the U.S. government broke treaties with some of the Native Americans, just as leaders today still sink to ignorant and unconscionable things, I don't think we should allow those past events to reshape our understanding of religion and ethics. The past beliefs and actions of those tribes are not suddenly above all reproach because they were sometimes victims.

We should try to resist any modernist tendency to rewrite history whenever we feel bad about something in the past.

Many Native American tribes had complex, though pagan, systems of belief - often mixing nature worship with a kind of pantheism. That sort of belief system, by definition, is pagan. So they were indeed pagan. And as far as the word "savagery" - most human ethnic groups, at some time in their past, resorted to savagery, and we still find it in the world today. So paganism and savagery, these parts of human history which many want to distance from certain groups, are just a part of human history; they are still part of the world today; and they were certainly a part of many ancient native tribes... though we know some tribes were peaceful. History is history. Humanity is humanity. Things are just what they are. Let's just be realistic about these things, and not feel a pull to rewrite history.

There was paganism, as far as I'm aware, in all of the tribes, and savagery in at least some of them.
I don't think that makes ancient tribes particularly worse than the rest of humanity... but it does remind us they were just part of fallen humanity. They weren't magical, or above reproach. They were just fallen people, like everyone else.
(Were they mistreated? Yes. But they also mistreated others. Some of the tribes conquered, stole land, murdered, raped, tortured, terrorized, and took slaves. They participated in the same good, and bad, as the rest of humanity.)

They were just people.

They warred with each other, we warred with them, they warred with us, and people lied to each other and broke their promises.

This is what fallen humans do.

Human history is a history of fallen creatures treating each other badly, ignoring their creator, living in sin, making a mess of everything... and sometimes.... sometimes getting things right.



Let's just allow history to be what it is, and resist our modern tendencies to make it otherwise.

God Bless.

.

I'll try to keep my reply short, 'cause I just don't feel like getting into this again today.
I did not say that Native American's are magical, or above reproach. I was replying to someone who mentioned ancient Native American influences.
I didn't and don't feel that Native American's should still have to be told they are/were savages. I agree that all people groups have had tribes/groups that acted savagely. But, I see people to this day believing that Native Americans were savages. People tend to focus on the bad when it comes to the tribes. Many times people lump all tribes together, which is a big error. I have an old dictionary that literary describes Native American's as savages. Here in this day and age, there are people who still consider Native Americans to be savages. I have heard this with my own ears. It makes me wince that I'm hearing this in the 21st century.

Anyway, you think how you will and I'll think how I will. Good day.

 

[maxwel]

I'll try to keep my reply short, 'cause I just don't feel like getting into this again today.
I did not say that Native American's are magical, or above reproach. I was replying to someone who mentioned ancient Native American influences.
I didn't and don't feel that Native American's should still have to be told they are/were savages. I agree that all people groups have had tribes/groups that acted savagely. But, I see people to this day believing that Native Americans were savages. People tend to focus on the bad when it comes to the tribes. Many times people lump all tribes together, which is a big error. I have an old dictionary that literary describes Native American's as savages. Here in this day and age, there are people who still consider Native Americans to be savages. I have heard this with my own ears. It makes me wince that I'm hearing this in the 21st century.

Anyway, you think how you will and I'll think how I will. Good day.

CarriePie, as usual, I'm feeling confused.

In the above post, you agree that some Native American tribes ACTED SAVAGELY (your words), and then you immediately said they were NOT SAVAGES.

I hope you can forgive me if the apparent contradiction leaves me feeling confused.

Thinking:
1. Perhaps when people act savagely, we are not allowed to use the word savage, because we might offend the people acting savagely?
2. But what if those people are long dead? Perhaps we should be concerned that people long passed from this earth, who acted savagely, might rise from the dead and claim they're offended if we call them savages?
3. Or maybe we're worried about the descendants of people who are long dead - the modern people, modern descendants far removed by time from these people who committed acts of savagery... perhaps these distant descendants might be offended if we use the word savage to refer to those perpetrating savagery, even when the perpetrators are long dead, and they never even knew them?
(However, if one group's ancestor's are disallowed from any negative discussion, then everyone's ancestors must be equally removed from negative discussion, and since every figure in history has descendants somewhere, then we could never have a history class and talk about anything negative in the past... even Hitler has descendants. Quite a conundrum.)



I'm really feeling confused by all of this.

I'm just really really confused.

.

 

[CarriePie]

Personally, I think you are making a mountain out of my comments in this thread. In my last post I typed, "all people groups have had tribes/groups that acted savagely." Don't twist my words. All people. All people...not just Native Americans.

I am mainly talking about how today, as in the past, we still hear Native Americans being referred to as savages. I don't agree with this. I don't know what is so confusing about this

Perhaps we should be concerned that people long passed from this earth, who acted savagely, might rise from the dead and claim they're offended if we call them savages?

What a hoot! lol