The Great Tribulation VS The Rapture Debate

[Adstar]

Not in my KJV Bible. Then please show me scriptures which support that conclusion. I am not familiar with them.
Are you telling me that Christ is to return and be on the earth for ....only.....the blink of an eye? Not for the one thousand year reign?
He is not returning with..."His armies"...(saved from all ages)...as stated in the bible at His 2nd advent?
Really?

In my KJV Bible the rapture happens on the day of the return of Jesus. Nice to know you have a KJV Bible..

And No the Blink of an eye is the time it will take for the rapture to happen.. The Kingdom will last 1000 years .. I have done a write up on the subject of the rapture and it's timing.. I am posting it below..

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]



Matthew 24

27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.



There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.



Luke 17

29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."



When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21



It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"



Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:





1 Corrinthians15:

49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.



Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:





50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.



So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:





51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:





53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.



So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.



So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.



So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:





Revelation10

7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.



Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:





Revelation 8

12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.





Now This brings up the belief in two resurrections. The resurrection of the saints that happens at the second coming and the resurrection of the rest of mankind at the end of the 1000 years for the great final Judgement. The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly states that their will be two distinct resurrections one at the return of the Messiah Jesus and another at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus:





Revelation 20



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.



satanic Rebellion Crushed

(1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.





The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

 

[Absolutely]

timed...cont'd

His 2nd advent is scheduled later in the 7 year trib. period to confront all the nations doing battle with Israel..... ...at the battle of Armageddon.

While the rapture is no doubt a divine event............ that is not the 2nd advent of Christ.

Yep
And i already showed them a rapture in rev 14.
So post and mid rapture are off the table.

 

[Absolutely]

In my KJV Bible the rapture happens on the day of the return of Jesus. Nice to know you have a KJV Bible..

And No the Blink of an eye is the time it will take for the rapture to happen.. The Kingdom will last 1000 years .. I have done a write up on the subject of the rapture and it's timing.. I am posting it below..

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]



Matthew 24

27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.



There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.



Luke 17

29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."



When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21



It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"



Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:





1 Corrinthians15:

49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.



Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:





50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.



So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:





51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:





53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.



So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.



So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.



So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:





Revelation10

7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.



Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:





Revelation 8

12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.





Now This brings up the belief in two resurrections. The resurrection of the saints that happens at the second coming and the resurrection of the rest of mankind at the end of the 1000 years for the great final Judgement. The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly states that their will be two distinct resurrections one at the return of the Messiah Jesus and another at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus:





Revelation 20



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.



satanic Rebellion Crushed

(1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.





The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

All you did was bolster the fact that he returns post trib.
You have not or can not " prove" the rapture takes place post trib.
That concept is debunked in more than one dynamic.
But rev 14 is a thread killer.
That one is really bad news for so many that have a heavy,heavy investment in the erroneous post trib rapture.
You guys shoulda stayed open,and not head down a wrong path.
A simple test fit goes a long way.

 

[Absolutely]

Not in my KJV Bible. Then please show me scriptures which support that conclusion. I am not familiar with them.
Are you telling me that Christ is to return and be on the earth for ....only.....the blink of an eye? Not for the one thousand year reign?
He is not returning with..."His armies"...(saved from all ages)...as stated in the bible at His 2nd advent?
Really?

Pretribs are the only ones watching and waiting.
Postribs are watching and waiting for the ac.
To them Jesus ain't coming at all. Not till many,many years from now.
To us,he could come today.
To them,it is a joke.
That right there is scary.
They will stay and face the ac. The one they are waiting for.

 

[Adstar]

All you did was bolster the fact that he returns post trib.
You have not or can not " prove" the rapture takes place post trib.
That concept is debunked in more than one dynamic.
But rev 14 is a thread killer.
That one is really bad news for so many that have a heavy,heavy investment in the erroneous post trib rapture.
You guys shoulda stayed open,and not head down a wrong path.
A simple test fit goes a long way.

Nothing in Revelation 14 confirms a pre-trib rapture..

As i said before the rapture happens at the same time as the first resurrection and that happens at the last trumpet and that trumpet is revealed in Matthew 24.. Which reveals the day of our LORD Jesus return..

 

[Adstar]

Pretribs are the only ones watching and waiting.
Postribs are watching and waiting for the ac.
To them Jesus ain't coming at all. Not till many,many years from now.
To us,he could come today.
To them,it is a joke.
That right there is scary.
They will stay and face the ac. The one they are waiting for.

Where does this erroneous teaching come from that declares that if a Christian does not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture then when it happens they will not be raptured??

Being caught up has nothing to do with believing in the right timing. It has everything to do with being a true Christian..

Of course the truth is that the rapture happens on the day of the second comming of our LORD Jesus and every Christian alive will take part in it.. Even the pre-tribulation believers who got the timing wrong will take part in it.. You will not hear such a toxic hate filled doctrine from post trib believers that pre-trib Christians will not take part in the rapture because they got the timing wrong..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where does this erroneous teaching come from that declares that if a Christian does not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture then when it happens they will not be raptured??

Being caught up has nothing to do with believing in the right timing. It has everything to do with being a true Christian..

Of course the truth is that the rapture happens on the day of the second comming of our LORD Jesus and every Christian alive will take part in it.. Even the pre-tribulation believers who got the timing wrong will take part in it.. You will not hear such a toxic hate filled doctrine from post trib believers that pre-trib Christians will not take part in the rapture because they got the timing wrong..

People are saying that unless you believe in pre-trib you will not be ressurected. They are wrong. But that also does not prove pre-trib is wrong..and yes, We have heard hate filled doctrine from all types. Each have their fanatics

 

[preston39]

In my KJV Bible the rapture happens on the day of the return of Jesus. Nice to know you have a KJV Bible..

And No the Blink of an eye is the time it will take for the rapture to happen.. The Kingdom will last 1000 years .. I have done a write up on the subject of the rapture and it's timing.. I am posting it below..

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]



Matthew 24

27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.



There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.



Luke 17

29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."



When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21



It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"



Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:





1 Corrinthians15:

49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.



Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:





50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.



So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:





51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:





53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.



So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.



So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.



So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:





Revelation10

7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.



Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:





Revelation 8

12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.





Now This brings up the belief in two resurrections. The resurrection of the saints that happens at the second coming and the resurrection of the rest of mankind at the end of the 1000 years for the great final Judgement. The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly states that their will be two distinct resurrections one at the return of the Messiah Jesus and another at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus:





Revelation 20



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.



satanic Rebellion Crushed

(1) 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[2] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.





The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

Doesn't fit. G-d says He will save us from the hour that will come upon all the earth.
Your conclusion...not biblical...has us going thru the trib. period.
The rapture sets the 7 year trib. period in motion.

 

[Adstar]

Doesn't fit. G-d says He will save us from the hour that will come upon all the earth.
Your conclusion...not biblical...has us going thru the trib. period.
The rapture sets the 7 year trib. period in motion.

God will save us from the wrath.. The problem with some preachers is that they wrap up the tribulation of the Saints with the wrath of God that will come upon those who will persecute the Saints..

God is well able to save His people from the effects of His wrath upon the world,, like when He saved Noah from the effects of the flood and so it shall be in the days of the coming of Jesus. Noah never left the earth during the flood.. But He was lifted up above the waters in the arc.. Only with His eyes did he see the the wrath fall on the wicked of his time.. So shall it be in the last days. There will be Christians who will survive the persecution of the beast and they will be protected and with their eyes see the wrath of the LORD upon those who persecuted them..

Psalms 91: KJV
2 "I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

 

[Hevosmies]

Look. I got nothing against the pre-trib rapture..... but i have to bring down this poor argument, im bored of it:

"The rapture cant be the second coming, because compare these passages:" and then they go on and on about how in the rapture only the Church sees him, the rapture is a blessed hope, the second coming is a day of wrath. And therefore they conclude it cant be the same event.

Now here is a wild thought: Could it be thats its a day of blessing for the SAVED and a day of wrath for the UNSAVED?

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Thats one argument that has to stop.

Let me pick on the post-tribbers too a bit: STOP using the poor argument of "Well, the pre tribbers believe Jesus is coming first, but the Bible teaches antichrist comes first, so therefore pre trib is a deception and people will accept antichrist as Jesus". ive heard it many times and its RIDICILOUS. Nobody is going to be deceived into thinkng antichrist is Jesus (thats saved) because you know why? If you still havent been given a glorified body, GUESS WHAT it wasnt Jesus!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ 2 Thessalonians 1:7 does not say "when the Lord shall be revealed"... [the word "when" is not in the text there]… the text literally says, "...rest/repose with us in the revelation..."

In these two chapters, Paul is covering the [subject of the] entire 7-yr tribulation period [what will take place WITHIN it], as well as how [where/when] our Rapture "fits" IN RELATION [time-wise] TO it.

The Thessalonians were being [wrongly] convinced that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [which is a time period of long duration with MUCH transpiring within it], and Paul is telling them WHY it is NOT SO. But it was perfectly reasonable for them to be persuaded of such a thing BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE CIRCUMSTANCES they were presently ENDURING [lengthy!], per 2Th1:4. They understood CORRECTLY "WHAT" the DOTL was to be; Paul is setting the record straight that it IS NOT PRESENT (and WHY).

Recall, when the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used together in the SAME CONTEXTS, they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD, and that is also the case as we see here in the CONTEXT of these 2 chpts (chpt 1 and chpt 2), where BOTH PHRASES are used (referring to the same TIME PERIOD of much duration). If you accept that these phrases are the equivalent of each other [time-span/-frame], then you can see that 2Th1:10b proves that it is NOT MERELY "a singular 24-hr day" (i.e. the 24-hr day of His "return" point in time). 2Th1:10b is set in CONTRAST to 2Th2:10-12 [contrasting "beliefs" ppl will come to have DURING/WITHIN the trib years (AFTER our Rapture)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Let me pick on the post-tribbers too a bit: STOP using the poor argument of "Well, the pre tribbers believe Jesus is coming first, but the Bible teaches antichrist comes first, so therefore pre trib is a deception and people will accept antichrist as Jesus". ive heard it many times and its RIDICILOUS. Nobody is going to be deceived into thinkng antichrist is Jesus (thats saved) because you know why? If you still havent been given a glorified body, GUESS WHAT it wasnt Jesus!

This is a flawed argument based (in part)… on the part of "post-trib viewpoint," I mean... on not grasping what it is Paul is actually conveying in 2Th2.

The Thessalonians were being [wrongly] convinced that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... THAT was what was on their distraught minds, that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT"

--not that it was "near / approaching," but "IS PRESENT"

--not Jesus Himself, but "the Day of the Lord" (a time period involving JUDGMENTS and VERY NEGATIVE things, just like they were already ENDURING... so this idea that it "IS PRESENT" was PERFECTLY *REASONABLE* to them... they were not dippy people)

--not that His Kingdom had arrived (SOMEwhere... over there, somewhere. No, they well knew of Jesus' teachings on that, Paul wasn't neglecting to tell them such truths)

--not that "a singular 24-hr day" had arrived

--and NOT [was on their distraught minds] anything about the "Caught Up/Away" Truth (absolutely no one had disappeared, and they were under NO SUCH DELUSION that that had taken place--the CONTEXT of their "thinking" was what Paul SAID, here, and that was, essentially, "don't let anyone convince you that THE DAY OF THE LORD [an EARTHLY TIME PERIOD involving JUDGMENTS, etc] IS PRESENT. [because] ONE THING must happen *FIRST*..." [according to the text here]. This is Paul's corrective to them [and this SEQUENCE is REPEATED 3x in this chpt 2, as well as being the SAME SEQUENCE as was shown in 1Th4-5!] And in verse 15 [the other end of this entire context] says, basically, "believe what WE taught you INSTEAD!")