THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Mar 28, 2014
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the Spirit does indeed bear witness that we are the sons of God, Amen!

and He which began a good work in us will complete it, despite the claim of some that we can stop Him from completing it.
you have to continue in obedience for the work to be completed....
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Its funny that some demand a certain amount of doubt has to be in our faith before we can be saved by faith...doubt is not faith...its unbelief and what many cannot see is its their legalism that is blinding them to having true faith... The law is not of faith...because it says salvation is based upon us...the righteous shall live by faith because we know and rejoice that salvation is based upon Christ and His work in us.
any faith you have that does not have works is dead faith and cannot save...show the faith that have no works and I will show you a dead faith...
 
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The_highwayman

Guest
any faith you have that does not have works is dead faith and cannot save...show the faith that have no works and I will show you a dead faith...
You would be correct, but the works James talks about is not reading your Bible, going to church, fasting, praying, seeking, asking, knocking, it is doing the work of the ministry. If you cannot perform the works of the ministry of reconciliation with Faith, then they are dead.

Have you ever fed the orphans and widows?
 
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The_highwayman

Guest
you have to continue in obedience for the work to be completed....
If your obedience to God is not instinctive and automatic then you have an issue. You rant and rave about obedience like it is something you work at. Not so, Obedience to God should become second nature to you and immediate.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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You would be correct, but the works James talks about is not reading your Bible, going to church, fasting, praying, seeking, asking, knocking, it is doing the work of the ministry. If you cannot perform the works of the ministry of reconciliation with Faith, then they are dead.

Have you ever fed the orphans and widows?
is it just feeding widows and orphans? if you think so then you still miss the point...
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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If your obedience to God is not instinctive and automatic then you have an issue. You rant and rave about obedience like it is something you work at. Not so, Obedience to God should become second nature to you and immediate.
we would all like to be that way but until we have all the answers we must test every spirit....I am happy you are at that point...but I doubt you were always there.....and it is doubtful you did not work at being obedient....never disobeyed or was never tempted or tested or maybe you passed all test or temptation...obedience is a choice ....we first must learn what is right or wrong before we can choose to do right or wrong...
 
Aug 28, 2013
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Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We who are married to Christ Jesus cannot abide in the House of the Law without being unfaithful to Him. The Law is dead to us, else we are guilty of adultery.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We who are married to Christ Jesus cannot abide in the House of the Law without being unfaithful to Him. The Law is dead to us, else we are guilty of adultery.
the law is not dead...we are become dead to the law...but alive unto Christ
it is the same law you use to justify your union with Christ and to claim unfaithfulness to him.....we are not under the law because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to them that believe....not because the law has become something bad...Christ alone fulfilled the law...no one else....so the law is not removed God concluded all under the law...the law has no power over Christ because it found no sin in him when he was executed....therefore death had to release him...so we who believe receive remission of sins and die willingly as he did....we are revived by the HS which joins us to him so like him the law have no power over us...but since the wages of sin is death...if we sin we must seek forgiveness else we can become separated from Christ....because sin cannot dwell in him
 
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The_highwayman

Guest
we would all like to be that way but until we have all the answers we must test every spirit....I am happy you are at that point...but I doubt you were always there.....and it is doubtful you did not work at being obedient....never disobeyed or was never tempted or tested or maybe you passed all test or temptation...obedience is a choice ....we first must learn what is right or wrong before we can choose to do right or wrong...
This is not as hard as you make it out to be if you invite the Holy Spirit to be your partner. Remember Jesus said his yoke was easy and his burden is light, if you are having a hard and difficult time, then you to take spiritual inventory, because the hand your holding may not be the hand of Jesus and could be the hand of your own understanding or worse the hand of the enemy. This is why Jesus said you must have child like faith to enter into the Kingdom.


Also remember that Abraham staggered not at the promises of God through unbelief, he simply believed[Romans 4]. I fail at times like everyone does. That said, I also know and understand SIN is a choice and not an omission or commission or something I am powerless against[Gen 3, 1 John 2 and James 1] I gain that understanding because I seek after the knowledge of Jesus Christ and I am promised through exceeding great and precious promises that I may partake of the divine nature[2 Peter 1 & Romans 8.29] As the divine nature gains ascendancy in my spirit man, my flesh or better yet, sense knowledge is killed. SIN is also a nature, but when you are born again, the SIN nature is purged[2 Peter 1] and I am made the righteousness of God in Christ[2 Cor 5.21] Righteousness is position not personal performance. Therefore I stand before the Father, through Jesus Christ without shame, guilt or condemnation.

The Author of Hebrews said that spending time trying to learn between good/evil right/wrong is a result of only clinging to the milk of the word and not moving on to the meat of the word and repeatedly clinging to the foundational beliefs. [Heb 5.11-14 through Heb 6.1-3. This is not a stab at you, but something you need to consider.

The great Bible heros did not stand around wringing their hands wondering what was good/evil right/wrong, they simply believed God and staggered not at his promises through unbelief.
 
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The_highwayman

Guest
the law is not dead...we are become dead to the law...but alive unto Christ
it is the same law you use to justify your union with Christ and to claim unfaithfulness to him.....we are not under the law because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to them that believe....not because the law has become something bad...Christ alone fulfilled the law...no one else....so the law is not removed God concluded all under the law...the law has no power over Christ because it found no sin in him when he was executed....therefore death had to release him...so we who believe receive remission of sins and die willingly as he did....we are revived by the HS which joins us to him so like him the law have no power over us...but since the wages of sin is death...if we sin we must seek forgiveness else we can become separated from Christ....because sin cannot dwell in him


Gal 3.22-26 disagrees with you.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
is it your understandin g the the one act justified her before God for all time or did she have to continue in the faith of God....if a man is saved after falling in a pit....that does not mean he is saved from falling into all pits....
No just as James says that is an example of faith with works. And clearly not works of the law. In fact those who turn back to the law are those who do not continue in faith. That is the warning of scripture!
 
Sep 30, 2014
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Just posted this else where it fits though...


…10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
any faith you have that does not have works is dead faith and cannot save...show the faith that have no works and I will show you a dead faith...
And the example is rahab the harlot who was justified by her simple act of faith. As far as my level of faith and works as Paul said I labored more abundantly than they all. Yet not I but the grace of God that is with me.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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you have to continue in obedience for the work to be completed....
Are you instructing God? There is no work, no level of obedience that can be established to support your earthly contention.

Jesus came not to be ministered unto but to minister. Jesus came to die for sinners that He might redeem them from their sins. Jesus ministers our salvation before the Father eternally.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Hoffco

Guest
I am convinced that my old husband was the law of sin and dead that once held me bondage. The laws of God were and are holy and are a part of the things which we must obey to live a righteous , godly life. In the new cov. the laws are changed, we have new moral laws plus the ten to keep now. The ordinances of the O.T. are no longer in force.but were once holy for those in the O.T. to keep, no more binding for us. Romans 7,8,13-14 tells me this. We should not talk of laws with out saying ,what laws we are talking of. The present day apostasy is a law-less christianity, which is faith only, it is dead. Love to all, Hoffco
 

Josefnospam

Senior Member
May 29, 2014
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I thank God Daily I am not under the Law, because I and you are sinners and break the law every Day. But our Savior kept it perfectly for all his people. Be thankful he did what we cannot do, and he gives his spirit to his people as he chooses. He forgives the many sins of all he died for and I for one will be forever thankful.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
 
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Kerry

Guest
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
The law will not fail as it came from God and even though the day it was given it was broken. Moses slammed it to the ground and broke it and had to rewrite it. Jesus said I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Because He was the only one who could. So by placing our faith in His work, we have kept the law.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness. Abraham had no law, none, nada, nothing. How do we obtain righteousness? by placing our faith in the work of Jesus. It is a free gift for those that believe. It is un earnable, meaning that there is nothing we can do to obtain it, other than placing our faith in His work and it's called grace. Which means unmerited favor.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
There would be no need of grace if there is no law.

No Law = No sin.
No sin = No need for grace
No grace = No need for a saviour.
etc
 
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Kerry

Guest
There would be no need of grace if there is no law.

No Law = No sin.
No sin = No need for grace
No grace = No need for a saviour.
etc
UMMM consider the Children of Israel in the wilderness. They had no law but were under His grace.