THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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To understand Romans 8.4 properly and in context you need to apply Verse 3 to it.

Romans 8.4 says:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8.3 says:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


In Vs. 3 Paul is telling us the law could not make us righteous and that it makes us SIN. But God sent Jesus to be like us, and be the sacrifice for us, the thought continues and is not a new thought in Vs.4 in that verse Paul is continuing his thought in Vs.3 and Vs.4 tells us that he did this so that we could be made righteous unto himself, so that we would no longer walk according to the flesh/senses/law and walk by the Spirit.

Stay out of the ditch called pretext and stick to proper context at all times....you took Vs4. as a stand alone thought, when it actually is a finished thought from the end of Romans 7.

Chapter and verses are not linear, they were added much later. The fact is that Romans 7-8 is one long chapter...not independent chapters with new topics. It is written just like Matt 5-7 and John 9-10. they are continuous in nature and should not be read in linear fashion or interpreted as separate topics.
Why not verse 5? Why just 3-4? Verses 5 is critical to understanding what he is saying.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I think most of this can be boiled down very simply.
Can a person be saved by the simple Gospel without any knowledge of the 10 Commandments, and live righteously without any knowledge of the Law? Yes.
Can a person become distracted from obeying the Spirit because they are focusing on trying to obtain the perfection of the Letter of the Law? Yes.
Is the Law in agreement with the Spirit? Yes.
Do we understand the Law without the Spirit? No.
Can a person think they understand the Law without having the Spirit? Yes, as the unbelieving Jews have shown.

The Spirit produces lawFULLNESS in Believers. The Law brings conviction and condemnation upon the unbeliever, and instruction to the Believer. Believers are no longer under it's condemnation, but are still under it's instruction (through the guidance of the Spirit, and not by man's understanding of the Law).

Can a Believer claim to have the Spirit, yet not bear the fruit of the Spirit? If we have the fruit of the Spirit, by living in love, joy, peace, patience, etc... then we will fulfill the Law, even if we have no knowledge of it.
Really good post ...your name says it all :)
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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Chopper the Lord said that Love alone fulfills the law...not me. Also no one can enter into and walk in the Spirit until they die to the law...that's why this subject is the most discussed subject of the New Testament.
Die to the Law of the Creator or die to the Law of sin and death?

The law of sin and death is not, "do not steal" "do not kill" "love your neighbor" "do not take the Name of YHWH in vain", the law of sin and death is what you see on a television daily...

Ok, so Romans 7:

7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.

12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.

Obedience to Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh." is holy.

13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.

"sin might become utterly sinful" breaking "do not steal" is sin and death

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.

the Law is spiritual;
Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumblingblock in front of the blind; but reverence your Father. I am Yahweh. Do not pervert judgment: You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great.

Breaking "You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great." is carnal


16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.

22 For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man;

23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.

25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

"I have deliverance"

deliverance from "do not steal" or deliverance from breaking "do not steal"

Romans 8:

2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.

(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.)


3 For what the Law was powerless to do, in that men sought to defeat; overthrow, fit, Yahweh did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to bear witness against sin. And so He condemned the sins of all mankind."

Is sin "do not steal?"

or is sin breaking "do not steal?"

(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

What is the flesh opposed to?

Following Yahweh's Law?

Rejecting Yahweh's Law?

carnal mind is enmity against
for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh


2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Psalm 19:7-10, "The Laws of Yahweh are perfect, converting the whole person. The testimony of Yahweh is sure, making the simple ones wise. The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart; mind. The commandments of Yahweh are pure, bringing understanding to the eyes. The reverence of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of Yahweh are true and altogether righteous. They are more to be desired than gold, yes, than even much fine gold. They are sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
Why not verse 5? Why just 3-4? Verses 5 is critical to understanding what he is saying.
Totally agree Hiz.

Romans 7 Paul is teaching us how futile it is to live for Christ in our own strength and then Chapter 8 shows us that it is the Spirit that helps us live for Christ.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Am I a legalist because I want to listen? (hear and obey)
No, and far from it! If you are in the Spirit, then the Law is edification, encouragement, and instruction. Continue in obedience, as we are called to. If you were to put your salvation in the hands of your own obedience, then where is your faith in Christ? But that is not your case, as you have said before. To obey is not a cause of Faith, but the very RESULT of Faith. Don't let any condemn you for seeking the Will and Truth of the Father. (But know that the knowledge comes with responsibility)
And AMEN to the Scripture! The Elect will surely persevere to the end, just as He has set from before the foundations of the earth were laid.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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Totally agree Hiz.

Romans 7 Paul is teaching us how futile it is to live for Christ in our own strength and then Chapter 8 shows us that it is the Spirit that helps us live for Christ.
I AGREE! :) This is from earlier;


I agree 100%, I just cant find the words, I try to talk with Scripture but I think it comes off the wrong way.

that is what I see in Romans 8

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Romans 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, they are the sons of Yahweh!"

Ezekiyl 36:26-28, "A new heart; mind, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I've given them to you twice now, and it appears you haven't read them.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104401-bac-must-endure-faith-end-life-saved.html

15 verses which teach ...
your faith must endure until the end for you to get eternal life.
It's CONDITIONAL.
I don't know Atone ...seems quite clear that if a believer remains in faith in the grace of God they are secure forever...didn't see anything that even cast a little doubt on that truth...maybe some don't understand that legalism is the issue of most warnings of scripture because the law is not of faith...those who turn back to the law have denied the grace of God and the righteousness of faith and are in willful sin. For the strength of sin is the law.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
(Live in the Spirit)
. 24Now those who belong to Christ Yahshua have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.…
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
I have seen plenty of people who claim to be saved in Christ, yet walk contrary to what He said.
They say obedience not needed, not forgiving others, and use coarse and bad language toward others. They have been lead into a easy believism falsehood, and not taught how they should walk.
Why do people who have problems with grace always seem to know Christians who are in sin? Yet they cant see the good work of grace in those of us who testify to its power in our lives? Grace alone overcomes sin...if folks want believers to be free from sin...preach the grace of God and stop trying to teach the law which is the strength of sin...
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Die to the Law of the Creator or die to the Law of sin and death?

The law of sin and death is not, "do not steal" "do not kill" "love your neighbor" "do not take the Name of YHWH in vain", the law of sin and death is what you see on a television daily...

Ok, so Romans 7:

7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.

12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.

Obedience to Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh." is holy.

13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.

"sin might become utterly sinful" breaking "do not steal" is sin and death

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.

the Law is spiritual;
Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumblingblock in front of the blind; but reverence your Father. I am Yahweh. Do not pervert judgment: You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great.

Breaking "You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great." is carnal


16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.

22 For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man;

23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.

25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

"I have deliverance"

deliverance from "do not steal" or deliverance from breaking "do not steal"

Romans 8:

2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.

(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.)


3 For what the Law was powerless to do, in that men sought to defeat; overthrow, fit, Yahweh did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to bear witness against sin. And so He condemned the sins of all mankind."

Is sin "do not steal?"

or is sin breaking "do not steal?"

(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

What is the flesh opposed to?

Following Yahweh's Law?

Rejecting Yahweh's Law?

carnal mind is enmity against
for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh


2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Psalm 19:7-10, "The Laws of Yahweh are perfect, converting the whole person. The testimony of Yahweh is sure, making the simple ones wise. The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart; mind. The commandments of Yahweh are pure, bringing understanding to the eyes. The reverence of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of Yahweh are true and altogether righteous. They are more to be desired than gold, yes, than even much fine gold. They are sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."
Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
Why do people who have problems with grace always seem to know Christians who are in sin? Yet they cant see the good work of grace in those of us who testify to its power in our lives? Grace alone overcomes sin...if folks want believers to be free from sin...preach the grace of God and stop trying to teach the law which is the strength of sin...
I think He is in a community where there are a lot of "social club" churches, or maybe the concert venue type that have many shallow emotional "converts" but no root, or maybe those "health/wealth" churches where people just come because they want to gain earthly comforts in a spiritual way.

We have the "health/wealth" ones near me, but they are all legalists. "Follow the rules and pay the preacher, then God will bless you". I have heard a few "cheap grace" preachers who are "health/wealth", but not near me. Just on the tv and the YouTube.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
(Live in the Spirit)
. 24Now those who belong to Christ Yahshua have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.…
OK this is my last try and I have to log...

"the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh"

IT IS IN THEIR HEART.

How is it possible for people to call it death, sin, curse, etc and it be in ones heart?

If one is in the Spirit they would not fight Yahweh's Law. PERIOD. They would be able to read it and glean everything Spiritually from it, that is why the Scripture is there. Refusing to view the words of Instruction is foolish.

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh.

Isayah 59:13-15, "In transgressing and lying against Yahweh, and turning away from following our Father, speaking oppression and rebellion, conceiving and uttering from the mind words of falsehood: So judgment is driven backwards, and justice stands afar off, for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yes, truth is suppressed; and he who departs from evil is accounted as mad. Yahweh saw this, and it displeased Him that there was no justice."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

It crazy to think that satan has people believing that reading the Fathers Instruction is bad and makes one lose their salvation, fallen fallen I say... wow.

If I read the words of Messiah and think to myself "I should do them, and pray, Yah give me the strength to walk in your ways" Im wrong? I dont get it. I would think everyone would want to walk in step with what He says.

I guess the Psalmists is super evil and going to burn on hot charcoal...

Psalm 1:1-2, "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the unrighteous, nor who stands in the path of sinners, nor who sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the Law of Yahweh, and in His Law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by rivers of water, which yields its fruit in its season, and whose leaf does not wither; whatever this man does will succeed. The unrighteous are not so! They are like the chaff which the wind drives away."

I just dont get it. Oh I know the new age, there is a new way now;

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Matt5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."


Matt 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.

Has anyone ever heard of the Mystery of Iniquity?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Why do people who have problems with grace always seem to know Christians who are in sin? Yet they cant see the good work of grace in those of us who testify to its power in our lives? Grace alone overcomes sin...if folks want believers to be free from sin...preach the grace of God and stop trying to teach the law which is the strength of sin...
"People have problems with grace"

I dont see that, I thank Yah for a clean slate, but I know using the blood of Messiah as a pass to go astray is eternal death. If we are followers of Messiah we should do what He says myself included.

Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.”

Hebrews 10:26-30, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
1Ti 1:5 ¶ Now the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith without hypocrisy:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
"People have problems with grace"

I dont see that, I thank Yah for a clean slate, but I know using the blood of Messiah as a pass to go astray is eternal death. If we are followers of Messiah we should do what He says myself included.

Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.”

Hebrews 10:26-30, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."
Well the "willful" sin in Heb 10 is turning back to the law (the strength of sin) and despising the Spirit of Grace.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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OK this is my last try and I have to log...

"the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh"

IT IS IN THEIR HEART.

How is it possible for people to call it death, sin, curse, etc and it be in ones heart?

If one is in the Spirit they would not fight Yahweh's Law. PERIOD. They would be able to read it and glean everything Spiritually from it, that is why the Scripture is there. Refusing to view the words of Instruction is foolish.


I guess the Psalmists is super evil and going to burn on hot charcoal...

Psalm 1:1-2, "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the unrighteous, nor who stands in the path of sinners, nor who sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the Law of Yahweh, and in His Law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by rivers of water, which yields its fruit in its season, and whose leaf does not wither; whatever this man does will succeed. The unrighteous are not so! They are like the chaff which the wind drives away."

I just dont get it. Oh I know the new age, there is a new way now;

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
Yahshua didn't teach law, He mostly spoke in parables .. Remember He stopped them from stoning that women " by the law ".

In flesh, we are all guilty, in Spirit " all charges are dropped ". It's not new age brother, this is what Peter and Paul argued over, and later Peter apologized and called Paul wise amongst men, to understand as he understood... We keep the commandments if we truly are DEAD to self.. Simple brother, people talk the Spirit talk, but they have to walk as if they are dead to self as well.. Hard feat but not hard if your sincere about your faith..
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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Yahshua didn't teach law, He mostly spoke in parables .. Remember He stopped them from stoning that women " by the law ".

In flesh, we are all guilty, in Spirit " all charges are dropped ". It's not new age brother, this is what Peter and Paul argued over, and later Peter apologized and called Paul wise amongst men, to understand as he understood... We keep the commandments if we truly are DEAD to self.. Simple brother, people talk the Spirit talk, but they have to walk as if they are dead to self as well.. Hard feat but not hard if your sincere about your faith..
You said, "Yahshua didn't teach law" He did, and He taught it in its perfect form; (1 John 5:2-3) true love, its true intention, not what the pharisees made it.,

for Scripture says He;

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your father and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."


Greek/Hebrew "who is without that sin cast the first stone" Too deep to get into here...

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
"People have problems with grace"

I dont see that, I thank Yah for a clean slate, but I know using the blood of Messiah as a pass to go astray is eternal death. If we are followers of Messiah we should do what He says myself included.

Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.”

Hebrews 10:26-30, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."
Well the "willful" sin in Heb 10 is turning back to the law (the strength of sin) and despising the Spirit of Grace.
1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; nd He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Just because we have mercy does not mean we throw all Instructions in the Law of Yahweh in the trash.

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Jude (Yahdah) 1:4, "For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."
 
Sep 30, 2014
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You said, "Yahshua didn't teach law" He did, and He taught it in its perfect form; (1 John 5:2-3) true love, its true intention, not what the pharisees made it.,

for Scripture says He;

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your father and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."
The commandments will be followed through the Spirit, how can a dead man steal ? He can't... We know the gifts of the Spirit, that's what lives in us, and we put that to action... Living and walking in the Ra'Hokodesh

As for selling all your things, we went over this I thought brother, everything in balance... Seek Him first and all these things will be added on to you.. Everything in balance brother, And then still giving in charity, Yahshua doesn't want you homeless.. He wants us righteous