THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Hizikyah]

I would recommend the book: The 2 kinds of RIghteousness by E. W. Kenyon and you will be set free!

I would recommend the book

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."

 

[psychomom]

You miss the greater point that Mitspa is preaching on.

Jesus is not the perfect righteousness....YOU ARE!

2 Cor 5.21 says God made Jesus sin, so you could become Righteous.....

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You are no longer under the law but grace....you become righteous[ which is a position and not attained by personal performance] through faith given to you by the grace of God.

Romans 10.10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The law was meant to "crush" you and you will never fulfill the law physically or by human means, because it was given to show you the need for a savior and the need for the free gift of righteousness.

1 Cor 15.56 tells us that the sin actually receives its power and strength through the law:
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

You are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus....

I would recommend the book: The 2 kinds of RIghteousness by E. W. Kenyon and you will be set free!

that was very kind of you...thanks.

i believe what you're referring to, theologically, is Union with Christ?
(aka--imputation!)

i agree with what you said, with the exception of
Jesus is not the perfect righteousness....YOU ARE!

Jesus is the Perfect Righteousness...otherwise, i'd have no leg to stand on.
but yes, because He is, when God the Father looks at a scoundrel like me,
He sees me as i will One Day be fully.

God's Law did its perfect work in me, too.
it drove me to our Savior.

 

[The_highwayman]

Gal 3.23-24 says....
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith.

It does not get any clearer than this folks.
The Law was until Chrfist came and through Christ we became the righteousness of God in him that knew no sin.

We gain the position of righteousness through our faith, which is given to us by God's grace.

Anything that adds to what Jesus did on the cross is all self-righteousness and is as filthy rags.

Righteousness is a position you are given at conversion and not something gained though daily attainment. We do not read the Bible, pray, go to church, do good works, increase in the fruit of spirit, and all those things to attain righteousness. If we do it that, it is all self-righteousness.

When you get a hold of becoming righteouss through faith, you will beome more holy and sanctified on accident than you ever will on purpose. The law is fulfilled in you by faith and through God's grace.

 

[Hizikyah]

Gal 3.23-24 says....
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith.

It does not get any clearer than this folks.
The Law was until Chrfist came and through Christ we became the righteousness of God in him that knew no sin.

We gain the position of righteousness through our faith, which is given to us by God's grace.

Anything that adds to what Jesus did on the cross is all self-righteousness and is as filthy rags.

Righteousness is a position you are given at conversion and not something gained though daily attainment. We do not read the Bible, pray, go to church, do good works, increase in the fruit of spirit, and all those things to attain righteousness. If we do it that, it is all self-righteousness.

When you get a hold of becoming righteouss through faith, you will beome more holy and sanctified on accident than you ever will on purpose. The law is fulfilled in you by faith and through God's grace.

I agree Salvation is not of self works but why would John write this if we were not supposed to focus on righteousness (which is only of Yah);

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

 

[Sophia]

you say one is given the righteousness of the law,when we are given the righteousness of Christ because he fulfilled the law,so it is fulfilled in us who have His Spirit...scripture says...the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit...
you are saying the righteousness of the law is already given...and already fulfilled in us....scripture says that it might be fulfilled in us who walk after the spirit

If we are in Christ, then we walk in the Spirit, and are fulfilling the Law. Where is your disagreement? I see no disagreement, unless you are accusing those in Christ of not walking in the Spirit.
How can we claim Christ if we do not have His Spirit to seal us?

 

[The_highwayman]

i agree with what you said, with the exception of
Jesus is not the perfect righteousness....YOU ARE!

Jesus is the Perfect Righteousness...otherwise, i'd have no leg to stand on.
but yes, because He is, when God the Father looks at a scoundrel like me,
He sees me as i will One Day be fully.

Hey sister, Did you read the verse I also put up?
2 Cor 5.21 says God made Jesus sin, so you could become Righteous.....

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I am not asking you to agree with me, the Bible says you are righteousness not Jesus.

Your Father doe snot look at you as a scoundrel, he looks at you as the righteousness of himself in Christ.

Jesus was made sin not righteousness so that you could attain right standing[righteousness] a position with God.

The leg you stand on is that you are righteous before God now not later. Jesus took your sin and become the scoundrel for you....

 

[Hizikyah]

If we are in Christ, then we are walk in the Spirit, and are fulfilling the Law. Where is your disagreement? I see no disagreement. Are you accusing those in Christ of not walking in the Spirit?
How can we claim Christ if we do not have His Spirit to seal us?

Im not implying you here, but from a world wide view. I have been to many spirit led churches that all teach and follow different things and I wonder how do we know were are being led by the right Spirit?

Again every denomination in the USA is claiming to "spirit led" and im not saying they are or are not, BUT all Teach different doctrines.

How does one know if the Spirit they are following is of Yahweh.

Since the Spirit says the EXACT same thing as the Law; judging what one thinks is right, against what the Scripture say is right would be my personal method.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

 

[kennethcadwell]

If we are in Christ, then we walk in the Spirit, and are fulfilling the Law. Where is your disagreement? I see no disagreement. Are you accusing those in Christ of not walking in the Spirit?
How can we claim Christ if we do not have His Spirit to seal us?

I have seen plenty of people who claim to be saved in Christ, yet walk contrary to what He said.
They say obedience not needed, not forgiving others, and use coarse and bad language toward others. They have been lead into a easy believism falsehood, and not taught how they should walk.

 

[The_highwayman]

I agree Salvation is not of self works but why would John write this if we were not supposed to focus on righteousness (which is only of Yah);

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

John is saying when Christians do right they show they are righteous just as Christ is righteous....

 

[The_highwayman]

He who lives in me...


Paul Confronts Peter
…19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Agreed and your point is?

 

[Brainfreeze]

I agree Salvation is not of self works but why would John write this if we were not supposed to focus on righteousness (which is only of Yah);

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

We are going in circles here... It's not us .. WE ARE DEAD, He who lives in us gets all the glory for works of righteousness through the Ra'Hokodesh

 

[Chopper]

We are going in circles here... It's not us .. WE ARE DEAD, He who lives in us gets all the glory for works of righteousness through the Ra'Hokodesh

Absolutely!!!

Blessed is He who comes in the name of Yah!

 

[Brainfreeze]

Im not implying you here, but from a world wide view. I have been to many spirit led churches that all teach and follow different things and I wonder how do we know were are being led by the right Spirit?

Again every denomination in the USA is claiming to "spirit led" and im not saying they are or are not, BUT all Teach different doctrines.

How does one know if the Spirit they are following is of Yahweh.

Since the Spirit says the EXACT same thing as the Law; judging what one thinks is right, against what the Scripture say is right would be my personal method.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Because of this... Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


No Ra'Hokodesh ... No Spirit filled church.. It's a scam if these fruits aren't present..

 

[Hizikyah]

John is saying when Christians do right they show they are righteous just as Christ is righteous....

1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

I see him saying;

let no man deceive you

he who practices righteousness is righteous

What does this verse from the Messiah mean to you?

John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Is He telling me im responsible for my actions?

 

[Sophia]

I have seen plenty of people who claim to be saved in Christ, yet walk contrary to what He said.
They say obedience not needed, not forgiving others, and use coarse and bad language toward others. They have been lead into a easy believism falsehood, and not taught how they should walk.

Someone who claims to have Christian culture can be an unbeliever, and therefore some who say they are in Christ are actually walking after the flesh,
But we're talking about true Believers, not the fakers.

I see far more legalistic christians than I see licencous christians, but even the legalists are usually full of hypocrisy and make excuses for their lack of love (which is a sin). How about the Sunday morning legalistic, who then goes to work on Monday and swears up a storm and tells dirty jokes, only to "repent" on Sunday morning again. No Spirit, just all physical rules. Just like the Hebrews, he must go back to the "well" (temple) regularly to refill. Those in the Spirit have Living Water which does not run dry, and are themselves the Temple of the Most High.

When we talk about the Law of the Spirit, we are only talking to those IN the Spirit.
If they are not IN the Spirit, then they are still under the Letter of the Law, and this conversation is foolishness to them.

 

[psychomom]

Hey sister, Did you read the verse I also put up?
2 Cor 5.21 says God made Jesus sin, so you could become Righteous.....

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I am not asking you to agree with me, the Bible says you are righteousness not Jesus.

Your Father doe snot look at you as a scoundrel, he looks at you as the righteousness of himself in Christ.

Jesus was made sin not righteousness so that you could attain right standing[righteousness] a position with God.

The leg you stand on is that you are righteous before God now not later. Jesus took your sin and become the scoundrel for you....

again, i mostly agree with you...yet i don't wish to derail this thread completely...

so i'll just ask you...if it's not Christ's Righteousness i have received...
if He wasn't Perfect before the Father...how did i become righteous?
how could anyone?

the way i understand the Gospel is that 2 Cor 5:21 is its heart.
Christ took our sin upon Himself and became sin so we can be righteous.
in doing so, He paid the due penalty for sin.
but without the ..."Him, who knew no sin" part...it's not the Gospel.

husband insists i sleep every 24 hours, but i'll check back tomorrow, Lord willing.

 

[Hizikyah]

Because of this... Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


No Ra'Hokodesh ... No Spirit filled church.. It's a scam if these fruits aren't present..

I agree here.

I asked because any can say spirit led, but how do we know, yes the fruits!

John 15:4-6, "Abide in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

Zecharyah 3:8, "Hear now, O Yahshua the High Priest, you and your companions who sit before you; for they are men wondered at. For behold, I will bring forth My servant the BRANCH."

John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

 

[The_highwayman]

you say one is given the righteousness of the law,when we are given the righteousness of Christ because he fulfilled the law,so it is fulfilled in us who have His Spirit...scripture says...the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit...
you are saying the righteousness of the law is already given...and already fulfilled in us....scripture says that it might be fulfilled in us who walk after the spirit

To understand Romans 8.4 properly and in context you need to apply Verse 3 to it.

Romans 8.4 says:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8.3 says:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


In Vs. 3 Paul is telling us the law could not make us righteous and that it makes us SIN. But God sent Jesus to be like us, and be the sacrifice for us, the thought continues and is not a new thought in Vs.4 in that verse Paul is continuing his thought in Vs.3 and Vs.4 tells us that he did this so that we could be made righteous unto himself, so that we would no longer walk according to the flesh/senses/law and walk by the Spirit.

Stay out of the ditch called pretext and stick to proper context at all times....you took Vs4. as a stand alone thought, when it actually is a finished thought from the end of Romans 7.

Chapter and verses are not linear, they were added much later. The fact is that Romans 7-8 is one long chapter...not independent chapters with new topics. It is written just like Matt 5-7 and John 9-10. they are continuous in nature and should not be read in linear fashion or interpreted as separate topics.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Am I a legalist because I want to listen? (hear and obey)

 

[Mitspa]

All this going back and forth over the law.... I'm curious.
What is the law of life?
What is the law of Yah?

Why do those that truly seek Him find delight in His law?

Why do others claim the law has been done away with and all we are supposed to do is love one another, which in turn AL:L the law hangs on that?

Are there those trying to say we have no laws but to love Yah and one another?

The law of love for Him and one another says what?

Chopper the Lord said that Love alone fulfills the law...not me. Also no one can enter into and walk in the Spirit until they die to the law...that's why this subject is the most discussed subject of the New Testament.