THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[eternally-gratefull]

after reading and participating in many of these threads, it seems to me that anyone who speaks of Grace and not the law is cast instantly as a lover of sin, or not saved or whatever. I would ask all the " law" people please do not make that leap. will do no good, but I will ask.

you have to remember, a legalist HAS to see themselves as better people than anyone else. for if they do not see themselves this way, then their whole belief system falls on its face.

so when someone comes and claims salvation is by faith not works.

1. it offends them, because it states all their hard work is for nothing (see pharisees, they killed Christ for that very reason)
2. since it offends them, they must protect themselves. what a better way than to say they excuse and love thier sin, when in reality, it is they who refuse to admit their sin.
3. for them to think a faith alone person could do more work and be more righteous and Christlike to them would be impossible. (even though in my 9 years at my current church, I see more people do more work for God, more people worried anout their sin struggles, and more people worried about serving others than I EVER did at my 30 some years in a legalistic church, who professed works, but had very little to show for it, it was mot judging others, then them actually going out and serving,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What "law" are you all referring to is the problem -- but it's no use to try to get even that part straight!

The opposing view point get called more names and their salvation judged more than those you're defending, gb9.

thats funny, since all legalistic doctrines would declare we can not be saved, and will never be saved until we repent, because we love our sin.

do you ever look in the mirror when you say things? it goes both ways.

 

[Keeper]

after reading and participating in many of these threads, it seems to me that anyone who speaks of Grace and not the law is cast instantly as a lover of sin, or not saved or whatever. I would ask all the " law" people please do not make that leap. will do no good, but I will ask.

In my view, this only happens when we sit down and just talk amongst ourselves, day in day out... rather than doing what we're supposed to do; which is to go out there and bring all the nations to Christ. Our getting together ought to be for one and only one purpose alone: To re-organize, before we get back to the front.

Staying "here" eventually makes us forget our life's purpose; and somehow we eventually start seeing our own brothers as the enemies... trying to take away our only hope and salvation (i.e. Christ).

Talk about Grace as much as Paul did, or talk about Law as much as Jacob did... you're both addressing the same coin (i.e. just 2 different sides). And just like a friend asked earlier:

Brother what part of love in the law of Christ does not more than keep the written code of Moses?

If we can at least sit down together, discuss an important topic such as this and come out with a common understanding... then we can get back to work, go out there with a firm conviction about the things we're saying and doing. That's the only way we will pull off this challenge together.

 

[ChristIsGod]

You'll stand before God with what you've written on this forum too, EG.

We have not called you all names - We have not said that you're not saved - but we can say that those that speak that way to others in His Body are at more risk than they know.

Obedience is what Jesus Himself preached from the Gospels to the Revelation and what you just posted is a pack of lies, not only against us that believe His Words on obedience - but you yourself are right now in the greatest rebellion of all --- all Liars and those that do not LOVE even their enemies are in grave danger.

You know you're lying and that's the scariest part.

I feel I have to do something that I never thought I'd ever do and never did before but to put a few of you name-calling-liars on ignore. I'll eat my own words when I wrote against doing that - but when it comes to name calling, judging other's salvation, and ESPECIALLY LYING AGAINST ANOTHER .... I didn't expect to see that here at the time that I spoke against the Ignore option.

Before I do - you are lying - judging other's salvation and MOTIVES for obedience to His Written Word and that's dangerous for you only and those that Amen you and do the same. Adios

 

[newbirth]

prety cool passage.

those who have faith in God WILL do what he commands
Those who have faith in God WILL overcome the world.

How do they overcome? "OUR TRUST" (FAITH)

is it not funny how myself, mitspa, dcon and others like us has been saying this all along.

Nothing in the passage says one can lose salvation, it teaches in fact the apposite.

what of those who depart from the faith and no longer trust in the Lord

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

are you saying Ananias and Sapphhira had no faith?
[h=1]Acts 5 King James Version (KJV)[/h] 5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

 

[Mitspa]

Very good point though!! Can't you see that we're talking the same language?

"Put these things to death," you say. And please take note; you're not saying: "Let's just ignore the Law which says that lust must never be found in us." Instead, you're agreeing with the Law; insisting that the "lust" in us must be PUT TO DEATH.

Yes we can.

So, no you're not being childish for believing that we can put these things to death. Because we can. And what does the Law say? It says: Do just that. Go ahead and put these things to death. (Obviously the road will be full of pain & sufferings, but that's a whole other subject for a different conversation.)

And so; where is that fight between Faith and Law? Vanished!! Can't you see?

Sure its vanished for you and me because we have spent years of study as ministers to get past all the tradition and legalism that held us bondage to our flesh... there is a scripture about the Shepherd's that drunk freely but would not share with the flock.. my intention here is to help some get out of the flesh and into the Spirit. Out of Moses and into Christ. And not be afraid to believe what the bible clearly says. '' the strength of sin is the law". Sin will not have dominion over you because your not under law but under grace. Grow in grace brother.

 

[notuptome]

You'll stand before God with what you've written on this forum too, EG.

We have not called you all names - We have not said that you're not saved - but we can say that those that speak that way to others in His Body are at more risk than they know.

Obedience is what Jesus Himself preached from the Gospels to the Revelation and what you just posted is a pack of lies, not only against us that believe His Words on obedience - but you yourself are right now in the greatest rebellion of all --- all Liars and those that do not LOVE even their enemies are in grave danger.

You know you're lying and that's the scariest part.

I feel I have to do something that I never thought I'd ever do and never did before but to put a few of you name-calling-liars on ignore. I'll eat my own words when I wrote against doing that - but when it comes to name calling, judging other's salvation, and ESPECIALLY LYING AGAINST ANOTHER .... I didn't expect to see that here at the time that I spoke against the Ignore option.

Before I do - you are lying - judging other's salvation and MOTIVES for obedience to His Written Word and that's dangerous for you only and those that Amen you and do the same. Adios

It is a red herring to contend that grace promotes lawlessness. Apart from grace you cannot stand before God.

Law and grace represent the two natures present in man. The natural man wants to obey but the flesh is weak and cannot continue. The Spiritual man who seeks to obey but soon finds he must have the help of his Savior or he too would be overwhelmed.

Jesus came not be served but to serve. Jesus serves in our salvation continually and for all of eternity. Jesus intercedes for us before the Father in heaven pleading for mercy to be upon us and not judgment.

Jesus did not just purchase our salvation and turn everything over to us. Jesus tends to the little lambs who are us every moment of everyday.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[The_highwayman]

you have to remember, a legalist HAS to see themselves as better people than anyone else. for if they do not see themselves this way, then their whole belief system falls on its face.

so when someone comes and claims salvation is by faith not works.

1. it offends them, because it states all their hard work is for nothing (see pharisees, they killed Christ for that very reason)
2. since it offends them, they must protect themselves. what a better way than to say they excuse and love thier sin, when in reality, it is they who refuse to admit their sin.
3. for them to think a faith alone person could do more work and be more righteous and Christlike to them would be impossible. (even though in my 9 years at my current church, I see more people do more work for God, more people worried anout their sin struggles, and more people worried about serving others than I EVER did at my 30 some years in a legalistic church, who professed works, but had very little to show for it, it was mot judging others, then them actually going out and serving,

EG,
The real issue are not the folks that hold the legal position. They were taught and sat under preaching of this false gospel. ,
The real issue is that there are thousands of preachers and evangelists that still preach and teach the Law and that righteousness is attained only through self righteousness works and only preach sin-consciousness.

 

[The_highwayman]

It is a red herring to contend that grace promotes lawlessness. Apart from grace you cannot stand before God.

Law and grace represent the two natures present in man. The natural man wants to obey but the flesh is weak and cannot continue. The Spiritual man who seeks to obey but soon finds he must have the help of his Savior or he too would be overwhelmed.

Jesus came not be served but to serve. Jesus serves in our salvation continually and for all of eternity. Jesus intercedes for us before the Father in heaven pleading for mercy to be upon us and not judgment.

Jesus did not just purchase our salvation and turn everything over to us. Jesus tends to the little lambs who are us every moment of everyday.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus did not just purchase our salvation and turn everything over to us

Wrong, the Gospels, Epistles and very words of Jesus refute you.....

 

[newbirth]

thats funny, since all legalistic doctrines would declare we can not be saved, and will never be saved until we repent, because we love our sin.

do you ever look in the mirror when you say things? it goes both ways.

scripture says to preach repentance..

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God gives the HS to those who obey him....not to those who say a sinners prayer or ask for him to come in their life...that is not in scripture...
[SUP]


29 [/SUP]Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,
The real issue are not the folks that hold the legal position. They were taught and sat under preaching of this false gospel. ,
The real issue is that there are thousands of preachers and evangelists that still preach and teach the Law and that righteousness is attained only through self righteousness works and only preach sin-consciousness.

I disagree,


the legal positions holds that salvation is gained and or lost based on how well or how many works you do.

it is all self righteousness, because it rejects the righteousness of Christ.

 

[The_highwayman]

your opinion differs from scripture...it is clear ...the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the spirit...what you have in blue is not scripture...and even your quote in red gives the indication of no physical action...
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You fulfill the law when by your faith, believe that by his grace God made Jesus sin and you the righteousness of God in Jesus....that is what this passage is telling you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong, the Gospels, Epistles and very words of Jesus refute you.....

John 10:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who ever came before Me[SUP][a][/SUP] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.[SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.


Revelation 7:17
for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

 

[Keeper]

Sure its vanished for you and me because we have spent years of study as ministers to get past all the tradition and legalism that held us bondage to our flesh... there is a scripture about the Shepherd's that drunk freely but would not share with the flock.. my intention here is to help some get out of the flesh and into the Spirit. Out of Moses and into Christ. And not be afraid to believe what the bible clearly says. '' the strength of sin is the law". Sin will not have dominion over you because your not under law but under grace. Grow in grace brother.

Correct.

But here's what you don't do. You don't tell them that they must "get out of Moses and into Christ", because Christ without Moses blended in there, that is no Christ at all.

The other thing you don't do is, you don't pull them by their ears, or scare them, saying that they're doomed if they don't reject the law.

What you do is: You gently speak to them, and tell them that what they're trying to do is good (i.e. to obey the Law), but that there's rather a much easier way to achieve that goal; which is to focus on one thing alone (Christ).

It's a lot harder to focus one's eyes on 10 things at the same time (10 commandments). But it's much easier to keep your eyes on one thing alone: Christ Jesus. Just as Israel was told to keep their eyes on the bronze snake (when trouble came, back in the desert)... or just as Peter was told to keep his eyes on Christ (when learning to walk on water).

Overcoming sin altogether is a miracle. It's exactly like walking on water... and you only make it by rather focusing all your energy and concentration on Jesus alone. (coz when the energy is split between 10 things, it's extremely difficult... if not impossible).

That's what you/I ought to say. Not: "Get out of Moses and into Christ"... because like I said earlier, there's no Christ with no Moses inside.

 

[newbirth]

It is a red herring to contend that grace promotes lawlessness. Apart from grace you cannot stand before God.

Law and grace represent the two natures present in man. The natural man wants to obey but the flesh is weak and cannot continue. The Spiritual man who seeks to obey but soon finds he must have the help of his Savior or he too would be overwhelmed.

Jesus came not be served but to serve. Jesus serves in our salvation continually and for all of eternity. Jesus intercedes for us before the Father in heaven pleading for mercy to be upon us and not judgment.

Jesus did not just purchase our salvation and turn everything over to us. Jesus tends to the little lambs who are us every moment of everyday.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God gave us power to become sons of God....how do you come up with...

The Spiritual man who seeks to obey but soon finds he must have the help of his Savior or he too would be overwhelmed.

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Did you miss the part where Jesus Christ is now Lord over all...all power is given to him...

Ephesians 6:6
Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Philippians 1:1

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[Brainfreeze]

Deuteronomy 6:5 - And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

John 14:15- If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Deuteronomy 6:5 - And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

John 14:15- If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 4:19

We love Him because He first loved us.

a man not given the right to be a child of God can not love God, because he has not experienced the love of God first. they can say they love God all the want, but according to scripture, this is impossible.

 

[newbirth]

You fulfill the law when by your faith, believe that by his grace God made Jesus sin and you the righteousness of God in Jesus....that is what this passage is telling you

You are raping the scripture to promote your doctrine.....
bro you have to live like Christ did ...he is our example....like Paul said...follow me as I follow Christ...James said...faith without works is dead...I post scripture saying...the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the spirit...
read and repeat scripture not your opinion....if it differs from scripture....


[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
in other words you fulfil the righteousness of the law when you walk after the spirit

 

[dcontroversal]

prety cool passage.

those who have faith in God WILL do what he commands
Those who have faith in God WILL overcome the world.

How do they overcome? "OUR TRUST" (FAITH)

is it not funny how myself, mitspa, dcon and others like us has been saying this all along.

Nothing in the passage says one can lose salvation, it teaches in fact the apposite.

Amen to this as well........it is quite simple and found within the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus and that being....

Genuine faith eternally saves, seals, justifies and sanctifies before God.....FOR EVER.....

Genuine faith will produce fruit...even if but one piece of fruit......

Works do not save, keep saved, produce salvation but rather are evidence of salvation.....

That is the difference......the bible states that faith saves.......and faith that saves will produce period!

 

[Mitspa]

Correct.

But here's what you don't do. You don't tell them that they must "get out of Moses and into Christ", because Christ without Moses blended in there, that is no Christ at all.

The other thing you don't do is, you don't pull them by their ears, or scare them, saying that they're doomed if they don't reject the law.

What you do is: You gently speak to them, and tell them that what they're trying to do is good (i.e. to obey the Law), but that there's rather a much easier way to achieve that goal; which is to focus on one thing alone (Christ).

It's a lot harder to focus one's eyes on 10 things at the same time (10 commandments). But it's much easier to keep your eyes on one thing alone: Christ Jesus. Just as Israel was told to keep their eyes on the bronze snake (when trouble came, back in the desert)... or just as Peter was told to keep his eyes on Christ (when learning to walk on water).

Overcoming sin altogether is a miracle. It's exactly like walking on water... and you only make it by rather focusing all your energy and concentration on Jesus alone. (coz when the energy is split between 10 things, it's extremely difficult... if not impossible).

That's what you/I ought to say. Not: "Get out of Moses and into Christ"... because like I said earlier, there's no Christ with no Moses inside.

My brother the gospel is a radical thing and it is Gods word that tells us to be set free from the law. Its repeted so many times in the epistles that one would have to ignore the whole New Testament not to tell people to get out of Moses and into Christ.... as far as my methods ? You say you Dont agree; I say you should pray and ask God himself if what you read today was from the flesh of a man or from the Spirit of God? Then be convinced in your own self. Because I am... God bless and feed the sheep brother.