THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[JesusIsAll]

Thanks and your right not everyone is ready for the strong meat . But glad you could drop by to insult all us babes in Christ. Lol

And part of being a baby is being insulted when this truth is pointed out.

 

[Mitspa]

Perhaps put it this way. There are law and grace threads that have already beaten this dead horse to liquid mush. This appears to be the primary topic here. Is it not legitimate that a thinking person may tire of seeing the same things repeated, ad nauseam? The same thread appearing over and over, with different names? Baby Christian doctrine endlessly struggled with and against?

dude ..OK we get it. Thanks for showing us his to be mature like you are.... you want to tell us how humble you are too?

 

[Keeper]

What part of keeping the law of Christ commits adultery? In fact if some of you would submit to the true law of God in Christ. You would find your lust have been crucified with the law...

Hmm... isn't that rather "naive"?! Haven't you read the passage where the apostle Paul says: "I strive to do good but evil is always standing in my way"?? Coz when you talk like that, you're either being a hypocrite or you're simply naive. But that wasn't the point of my scenario; which was based on the law against adultery, but which would apply to any other law.

Think of any one of the 10 commandments, and assume that you're struggling with it. And suppose that 2 options are presented before you: Either to dismiss the Law entirely (and hence stop suffering guilt); or to stick to the belief that you must overcome sin, and therefore endure GUILT up until it either kills you or you win the war. My question was: What would you recommend?

 

[Mitspa]

Poor old Paul spending all those epistles writtng about the difference between law and grace. And then chewing Peter out in front of the whole world over this silly issue? Odd how some have advanced past the principles of things into place where they insult others for looking into the truths if scripture? I know nothing yet as I should know.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Pick and choose. Pick and choose.

The "Because a tiny part of What is Written told me so" doctrine - is about to be tested beyond some human's imagination.



"For sure"

 

[Keeper]

hahaaa... "Poor old Paul" indeed...

Anyhow. There's something you wrote earlier that I liked; "... what part of love in the law of Christ does not more than keep the written code if Moses?"

I will hang onto that, as the one thing I'll remember you about. And by the way, this is the internet so, maybe it's wiser to expect every kind of comments (even insulting ones I suppose). I just know that from within all this noise, the Truth will always break through the boundaries and reveal itself to us. Therefore, do not be discouraged. Keep on moving... "looking into the truths of scripture" as you put it.

 

[Mitspa]

Hmm... isn't that rather "naive"?! Haven't you read the passage where the apostle Paul says: "I strive to do good but evil is always standing in my way"?? Coz when you talk like that, you're either being a hypocrite or you're simply naive. But that wasn't the point of my scenario; which was based on the law against adultery, but which would apply to any other law.

Think of any one of the 10 commandments, and assume that you're struggling with it. And suppose that 2 options are presented before you: Either to dismiss the Law entirely (and hence stop suffering guilt); or to stick to the belief that you must overcome sin, and therefore endure GUILT up until it either kills you or you win the war. My question was: What would you recommend?

So we can't really
Put these things of the flesh to death? As the bible clearly tells us? I guess I am just naive enough to believe that the bible is absolute in its truth? I'm kinda like a child I guess? But you can do it how ever seems right to you.

 

[ChristIsGod]

So we can't really
Put these things of the flesh to death? As the bible clearly tells us? I guess I am just naive enough to believe that the bible is absolute in its truth? I'm kinda like a child I guess? But you can do it how ever seems right to you.

Yes, you are like a child. One that only likes certain things that are put on the table and chucks the rest of the very things that would make the body whole.

Your loss - HE's said enough - you just don't like "Every Word that proceeds out of the Mouth Of GOD" - but, no biggie, right?

Have at it then but JesusIsAll has a very good point. I'll add it to the Titus 3:10 I posted yesterday.

 

[Mitspa]

And part of being a baby is being insulted when this truth is pointed out.

Lol. Well I know that your very mature and I'm just a babe. So thanks again for your godly correction. I'm sure you help a lot of people.

 

[Keeper]

So we can't really
Put these things of the flesh to death? As the bible clearly tells us? I guess I am just naive enough to believe that the bible is absolute in its truth? I'm kinda like a child I guess? But you can do it how ever seems right to you.

Very good point though!! Can't you see that we're talking the same language?

"Put these things to death," you say. And please take note; you're not saying: "Let's just ignore the Law which says that lust must never be found in us." Instead, you're agreeing with the Law; insisting that the "lust" in us must be PUT TO DEATH.

Yes we can.

So, no you're not being childish for believing that we can put these things to death. Because we can. And what does the Law say? It says: Do just that. Go ahead and put these things to death. (Obviously the road will be full of pain & sufferings, but that's a whole other subject for a different conversation.)

And so; where is that fight between Faith and Law? Vanished!! Can't you see?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes it is always making it your master if you do not repent of it and ask forgiveness of that sin.
The bible says those who do not turn from their sins and ask for forgiveness of them do that because they love darkness more than they love the light.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who do not make an effort to turn from there sins, and listen to the Holy Spirit's guidance when it tells them not to do something they shouldn't are those who love the darkness over the light.

This does not prove all sin is serving satan, And since we both agree someone who continues in sin was never saved, is not even an applicable response to what I posted.

Now this is a work in progress and does not happen overnight, but it still is not a license to justify not confession or repenting of them. And a one time repentance back 10,15,20, or even 30 or more years ago does not cover sins you do today. Sorry but the bible does not say that, as Paul says you can become not pure again through sin. How can Paul say that if your sins are already covered years ago? He can't, but he does.

eternal life is eternal. or else God lied.

If you want to call God a liar. that on your head.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your picking and choosing, Abraham had faith AND works:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith AND WORKS.

Luke 11:28, "But He said: Yet, rather, blessed are those who hear the plan of Yahweh, and keep; guard, preserve, and obey, it!"

Your picking and chosing.

If abraham was found by works, he would have something to boast about but not before God. If he was saved by work, it is a wage and not of grace.

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

[h=3]David Celebrates the Same Truth[/h][SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."

Abraham was found righteous before he did one work. and here you have david agreeing with abraham, so PAUL, DAVID and ABRAHAM are witnesses that we are not saved by works.

James did not say Abraham was saved by works, he said his faith was proven REAL by his works (Abraham was not a hearer but not a doer

Nice try, but you get no cigar today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Here is how we know that we love God’s children: when we love God, we also do what he commands. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For loving God means obeying his commands. Moreover, his commands are not burdensome, [SUP]4 [/SUP]because everything which has God as its Father overcomes the world. And this is what victoriously overcomes the world: our trust. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who does overcome the world if not the person who believes that Yeshua is the Son of God?

prety cool passage.

those who have faith in God WILL do what he commands
Those who have faith in God WILL overcome the world.

How do they overcome? "OUR TRUST" (FAITH)

is it not funny how myself, mitspa, dcon and others like us has been saying this all along.

Nothing in the passage says one can lose salvation, it teaches in fact the apposite.

 

[newbirth]

Anyone who would judge in their own heart to condemn another person by a standard they Dont not keep themselves has a wicked heart in the eyes of God weep and howl ye hypocrites for ye will not and you cause others to stumble at your hypocrisy... It would have been better for you to have never known the truth than to have used it to destroy others. fear the Lord ye hypocrites for the harlot will inherit and you will haveyour place in the pit.

John 12:46-49King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

[SUP]48 [/SUP]He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[SUP]49 [/SUP]For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 5:45-47King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not about just turning back to the law, it is about turning back to willful unrepented sins.

no, it is returning to the law thay is the context of the whole book of hebrews..

do not return to law. The law can never saved, sacrifice of bulls and goats can never take away sin, Jesus high priest order Melchizedek.

that is the context.

 

[gb9]

after reading and participating in many of these threads, it seems to me that anyone who speaks of Grace and not the law is cast instantly as a lover of sin, or not saved or whatever. I would ask all the " law" people please do not make that leap. will do no good, but I will ask.

 

[ChristIsGod]

What "law" are you all referring to is the problem -- but it's no use to try to get even that part straight!

The opposing view point get called more names and their salvation judged more than those you're defending, gb9.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, yo u are like a child. One that only likes certain things that are put on the table and chucks the rest of the very things that would make the body whole.

Your loss - HE's said enough - you just don't like "Every Word that proceeds out of the Mouth Of GOD" - but, no biggie, right?

Have at it then but JesusIsAll has a very good point. I'll add it to the Titus 3:10 I posted yesterday.

So your not happy with me either? Is it because I have said that love is greater than legalism? Or that we can die to sin by dying to the law?

 

[ChristIsGod]

And hoping [praying] that we all can have a nice month or so and this topic stays on threads about this topic only so we that wish to avoid it Can.

 

[ChristIsGod]

So your not happy with me either? Is it because I have said that love is greater than legalism? Or that we can die to sin by dying to the law?

No, it's because you are calling something "law" and something "legalism" which is Neither!