The Gospels and the Mystery
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I'm not sure why you would translate my saying that you can call it a covenant as my being condescending. It's just not a big deal to me as to what others want to call it. I also never said you don't know what you're talking about. I simply remain unconvinced from what you wrote. Nothing more, nothing less. Reading into my words things that aren't there, that tends to make others wonder about how settled you may or may not be on your beliefs. Please don't put words into the words of others. If you could see my facial expressions and/or hear the inflections in my voice, then perhaps your take on it all would have been different.
No need to demonize what others say, so let's keep this on the level of the topic at hand, shall we? That's what I prefer.
MM
No need to demonize what others say, so let's keep this on the level of the topic at hand, shall we? That's what I prefer.
MM
When it comes to "covenants," it's interesting to observe that the modern "covenant" is with Israel, not the body of Christ. See Hebrews chapters 8, 9 10, 12 and 13. Hebrews was written to Israel...the Hebrews, speaking of things past and future. I can't find one verse anywhere mentioning a covenant made with the body of Christ.
I wasn't all that interested in this topic until now, so if someone knows of something credible stated in scripture that speaks otherwise, please share that with us. Some have tried to say in the past to me that Hebrews was written by Paul, which is impossible. So, please share quotes from the Bible with your personal commentary.
Thanks
MM
I wasn't all that interested in this topic until now, so if someone knows of something credible stated in scripture that speaks otherwise, please share that with us. Some have tried to say in the past to me that Hebrews was written by Paul, which is impossible. So, please share quotes from the Bible with your personal commentary.
Thanks
MM
Timothy is referred to in the Hebrews Epistles. Timothy's known companion in the scriptures is Paul.
I think the onus is on those who claim it impossible for Paul to have written Hebrews.
As is the notion the Gospel covenant,the covenant of grace,does not include the Gentiles.
Paul's Ephesians epistle tells us we are included in God's covenant even when we are not the original recipients.
You might enjoy this article.
https://www.andrews.edu/agenda/60110#:~:text=Secondly, it is true that,titles of the Catholic Epistles.
I think the onus is on those who claim it impossible for Paul to have written Hebrews.
As is the notion the Gospel covenant,the covenant of grace,does not include the Gentiles.
Paul's Ephesians epistle tells us we are included in God's covenant even when we are not the original recipients.
You might enjoy this article.
https://www.andrews.edu/agenda/60110#:~:text=Secondly, it is true that,titles of the Catholic Epistles.
-
1
- Show all
That's an interesting acid test for authorship as a stand-alone measure, but it simply cannot serve a useful purpose throughout all of scripture from what I have read from numerous theologians through the years. If we delve down into the Greek, we see that our English translations will use differing expressions for the same Greek word. That doesn't mean that the same Greek word was not used in other places, but translated with English words with similar definitions.
Let's apply yet another acid test to the idea that Paul allegedly wrote the book of Hebrews:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; as I wrote afore in few words,
So what Paul preached in relation to the mystery that remained sealed up within God until revealed to Paul, not my other men, but Christ Jesus Himself, it could not have come from other men, neither did Paul ever say that it was confirmed by other men to him since it came directly from Christ Himself.
The writer of Hebrews, however, said this:
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
So, the writer of Hebrews is directing the reader's attention to what was preached openly by Christ before the cross, and afterward by the eleven. Paul's Gospel was not the same as what was preached by the eleven nor by Christ, for dare we read the Gospels, we see not one instance of Christ pointing to His coming crucifixion, burial and resurrection on the third day, but we DO read where the disciples knew NOT what Christ was saying when He first spoke of His being flogged, beaten and killed. It even says the disciples not only lacked understanding of that, but also that they were afraid to ask.
So, had Paul been the author of Hebrews, then we would expect to see the same Gospel preached in that book as was written about in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, but it is not the same Gospel because it was not written to the same people at the same time.
MM
Let's apply yet another acid test to the idea that Paul allegedly wrote the book of Hebrews:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; as I wrote afore in few words,
So what Paul preached in relation to the mystery that remained sealed up within God until revealed to Paul, not my other men, but Christ Jesus Himself, it could not have come from other men, neither did Paul ever say that it was confirmed by other men to him since it came directly from Christ Himself.
The writer of Hebrews, however, said this:
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
So, the writer of Hebrews is directing the reader's attention to what was preached openly by Christ before the cross, and afterward by the eleven. Paul's Gospel was not the same as what was preached by the eleven nor by Christ, for dare we read the Gospels, we see not one instance of Christ pointing to His coming crucifixion, burial and resurrection on the third day, but we DO read where the disciples knew NOT what Christ was saying when He first spoke of His being flogged, beaten and killed. It even says the disciples not only lacked understanding of that, but also that they were afraid to ask.
So, had Paul been the author of Hebrews, then we would expect to see the same Gospel preached in that book as was written about in 1 Cor. 15:1-4, but it is not the same Gospel because it was not written to the same people at the same time.
MM
Let's look at the gospel message Peter actually preached only to the Jews from every part of the known world:
Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No mention there of simply believing in the death, burial and resurrection on the third day of Christ Jesus, but rather WORKS through water baptism in the name of Christ Jesus.
What are your thoughts on that, because some have tried to tell me that it simply wasn't recorded the rest of the Gospel that was finally penned by Paul many years later about believing in the death, burial and resurrection on the third day of Christ, and yet the scriptures are silent on that up to the point of Paul receiving the revelation of the mystery directly from Christ Jesus?
MM
Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No mention there of simply believing in the death, burial and resurrection on the third day of Christ Jesus, but rather WORKS through water baptism in the name of Christ Jesus.
What are your thoughts on that, because some have tried to tell me that it simply wasn't recorded the rest of the Gospel that was finally penned by Paul many years later about believing in the death, burial and resurrection on the third day of Christ, and yet the scriptures are silent on that up to the point of Paul receiving the revelation of the mystery directly from Christ Jesus?
MM
Simply, this would destroy the hype we are in. Of course, Hebrews 2:3 -4 acknowdleges, so great salvation spoken by the Lird and the confirmation through signs and wonders the Apostles did inculding the author which is Paul. Yes I am not looking for the answers of mere opinion of men but what the Bible says. Seems to me you have not again diciphered, rightly divided God word through Paul. In 2 Thesallonians 3:17-18, speaks of this truth that the token, a proof that it is his letter is about God' grace. Yet you seem to deny the same grace.
???
How so?
Hebrews 2:3-4
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Paul already knew what was preached by Christ and His disciples, and therefore didn't need instruction of that preaching, especially when Jesus appeared to Paul personally, which, in Paul's mind, would certainly have confirmed to him that what those he was persecuting had indeed heard what was true for them then, and so no need for confirmation from other men what he saw with his own eyes and heard with his own ears.
I quoted where Paul clearly stated to the churches he had planted that what he taught to him was not taught to him from men, but from Christ:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; as I wrote afore in few words,
Not the "word of men," such as what you hear in your Sunday school or from the pulpit when you attend. All of that is the word of men teaching something from the English translations of the Bible, but Paul taught what he had heard directly from God. The writer of Hebrews laid no such foundation as to have heard it all from God directly, but from the eleven apostles.
So, I don't understand how this can be so easily overlooked and trodden under foot on the basis of some seeming similarities in English translations in other passages that simply don't carry the weight of proof for Paul allegedly being the author.
Historically, Clement thought Paul was the author, but Tertullian thought it was Barnabas. So even historically there was broad-based thinking about the authorship with there being no consensus even among the Nicene and Ante Nicene writers that far back in time.
So, realistically, given that the writer of Hebrews was writing only on the side of the Kingdom Gospel rather than the Gospel of Grace as spoken by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4, no. They are not at all fixated on the same focus of centrality for the Gospel that is currently in force today, which is faith alone, not by works, as Paul preached exclusively.
MM
How so?
Hebrews 2:3-4
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Paul already knew what was preached by Christ and His disciples, and therefore didn't need instruction of that preaching, especially when Jesus appeared to Paul personally, which, in Paul's mind, would certainly have confirmed to him that what those he was persecuting had indeed heard what was true for them then, and so no need for confirmation from other men what he saw with his own eyes and heard with his own ears.
I quoted where Paul clearly stated to the churches he had planted that what he taught to him was not taught to him from men, but from Christ:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; as I wrote afore in few words,
Not the "word of men," such as what you hear in your Sunday school or from the pulpit when you attend. All of that is the word of men teaching something from the English translations of the Bible, but Paul taught what he had heard directly from God. The writer of Hebrews laid no such foundation as to have heard it all from God directly, but from the eleven apostles.
So, I don't understand how this can be so easily overlooked and trodden under foot on the basis of some seeming similarities in English translations in other passages that simply don't carry the weight of proof for Paul allegedly being the author.
Historically, Clement thought Paul was the author, but Tertullian thought it was Barnabas. So even historically there was broad-based thinking about the authorship with there being no consensus even among the Nicene and Ante Nicene writers that far back in time.
So, realistically, given that the writer of Hebrews was writing only on the side of the Kingdom Gospel rather than the Gospel of Grace as spoken by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4, no. They are not at all fixated on the same focus of centrality for the Gospel that is currently in force today, which is faith alone, not by works, as Paul preached exclusively.
MM
That's not what Jesus preached after He was baptized, so I'm not following what you're saying from just one short sentence. Jesus never preached a Gospel that included His death, burial and resurrection yet to come. When He sent His disciples out to preach, they did not even know of His coming death, burial and resurrection to preach as the Gospel that they preached to Israel only.
MM
MM
Further reason to reject Paul as the writer of Hebrews:
First, in all of Paul’s 13 epistles, he clearly speaks in absolute terms of himself, even naming himself, by name in them. Given that Hebrews is a radical departure along that front, speaks loud volumes to his not being the author of Hebrews.
Secondly, the style of argumentation cannot serve as a reliable basis for authorship given that the Kingdom Gospel remained consistent among all the apostolic writers. Furthermore, the very polished Greek styling within the original language of Hebrews doesn’t match up with what we can read in the Pauline letters in their original language of Greek.
Third, the author of Hebrews doesn't include himself among any of the original eyewitnesses of Christ. In contrast, Paul repeatedly emphasized his authority as an apostle of Christ in his epistles, while also refusing to place himself in a subordinate position to the apostles and eyewitnesses. This, then, places Paul FAR outside the realm of possibilities for authorship of Hebrews.
Barnabas seems a better choice, or John Mark since the author was not a member of the apostles.
MM
First, in all of Paul’s 13 epistles, he clearly speaks in absolute terms of himself, even naming himself, by name in them. Given that Hebrews is a radical departure along that front, speaks loud volumes to his not being the author of Hebrews.
Secondly, the style of argumentation cannot serve as a reliable basis for authorship given that the Kingdom Gospel remained consistent among all the apostolic writers. Furthermore, the very polished Greek styling within the original language of Hebrews doesn’t match up with what we can read in the Pauline letters in their original language of Greek.
Third, the author of Hebrews doesn't include himself among any of the original eyewitnesses of Christ. In contrast, Paul repeatedly emphasized his authority as an apostle of Christ in his epistles, while also refusing to place himself in a subordinate position to the apostles and eyewitnesses. This, then, places Paul FAR outside the realm of possibilities for authorship of Hebrews.
Barnabas seems a better choice, or John Mark since the author was not a member of the apostles.
MM
The gospel is confirmed through signs and wonders, etc., and biblical references refer to Paul's confirmation via v.4. This authentication proves Paul’s apostleship 2 Cor. 12:12 and confirms the gospel Mark 16:20
Romans 15:18-19
King James Version
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Acts 19:11-12
King James Version
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Acts 14:8-10, Acts 16:16-18
No, we don’t need extra-biblical proof to prove Paul’s authorship to the Hebrews. It’s already in the word, where Paul specifically stated his mark “token” is about grace. Though other Apostles may have used them, the Book of Hebrews mentions Timothy, his son in the faith perfectly fits being the author of it. Here is Peter’s testimony confirming Paul’s having written letters to his countrymen, the Jews:
2 Peter 3:15
King James Version
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Romans 15:18-19
King James Version
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
Acts 19:11-12
King James Version
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Acts 14:8-10, Acts 16:16-18
No, we don’t need extra-biblical proof to prove Paul’s authorship to the Hebrews. It’s already in the word, where Paul specifically stated his mark “token” is about grace. Though other Apostles may have used them, the Book of Hebrews mentions Timothy, his son in the faith perfectly fits being the author of it. Here is Peter’s testimony confirming Paul’s having written letters to his countrymen, the Jews:
2 Peter 3:15
King James Version
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;