The Gospels and the Mystery

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry, but I don't see that in Acts 15. ... the Gospel of Grace came in through revelation to Paul,

The gospel of grace was first proclaimed to the gentiles by Peter, not Paul, and it was no different than what all of the apostles followed. God is no respecter of persons. Works of law is not grace. Believing Jews zealously following the law was done out of ignorance of the fullness of God's plans rather than being a dispensational requirement

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:7-9

But we [children of Israel] believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The only difference I see between how Jews were saved back then after the cross and how gentiles are saved after the cross is Jews were saved out of faith into justification and gentiles are saved through faith into justification. IMO today since the old covenant along with the law has been abrogated, Jews must be saved through faith just as gentiles are.

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:30

By
G1537 ἐκ ek (ek) prep.
ἐξ ex (ex)
1. out (of a place, time, or cause).

Through
G1223 διά dia (d̮iy-a') prep.
δι- di- (d̮iy-) [shortened prefix]
1. through.

 

[Musicmaster]

The gospel of grace was first proclaimed to the gentiles by Peter, not Paul, and it was no different than what all of the apostles followed. God is no respecter of persons. Works of law is not grace. Believing Jews zealously following the law was done out of ignorance of the fullness of God's plans rather than being a dispensational requirement

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:7-9

But we [children of Israel] believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11

What drove Paul, besides the Judaisers, to go to Jerusalem as described in Acts 15?

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

What was Paul's Gospel?

Ephesians 3:3-4, 9
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) ...
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Collosians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Peter preached this:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Paul did not ever, at any time, preach those elements as the Gospel given to him before any other man.

So, the scriptures have every appearance of contradicting your claims about Peter. Grace does not and cannot intermix with works. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles:

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Nowhere does scripture declare that about Peter being an apostle to the Gentiles, although there is one instance where Peter was among Gentiles in one event mentioned in Galatians 2 when Paul confronted him because of his hypocrisy among the Gentiles.

MM

 

[MeowFlower]

When we look at the Gospel as preached by the twelve, and the Gospel given to Paul to be preached to Gentiles and Jews alike, it becomes quite clear, apart from over-spiritualizing everything one reads, that the two messages are not one and the same:

The Kingdom Gospel preached by Christ and the twelve:

Proclaimed repentance and water baptism for salvation (Acts 2:38)
Proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom ([URL='Matthew 4:17, Acts 3.19)
Saved and commissioned within Israel’s borders (Matthew 16:13, 16-17)
Taught in Christ’s earthly ministry
Ministered to Jews only (Matthew 10:5, Galatians 2:7-9)

The Gospel of Grace received and taught by Paul:

Proclaimed “believe” alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Proclaimed the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24)
Saved and commissioned outside Israel’s borders (Acts 9:3)
Was taught in Christ’s heavenly ministry (Galatians 1:1, 11-12)
Ministered primarily to Gentiles because of Jewish rejection (Romans 11:13, Galatians 2:7-9)

Paul was not taught by the twelve:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

So, Paul was instructed by Christ Jesus, not other men in the mystery, which is the body of Christ, that was hidden in God, not the scriptures or the prophets:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 3:2-7
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Not given to the twelve, but only to Paul, who then preached it to all others from that point onward. Paul already knew that the eleven were preaching, but THAT is the reason he persecuted them, and killed them. If Paul was only preaching what the others had already been preaching, then all the scriptures stating otherwise make no sense.

1 Corinthians 2:7-9
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

See that? Not even Satan and his demons knew of the Gospel of Grace that would be extended to the Gentiles until after it was revealed to, and preached by Paul. They would not have pushed for the crucifixion of Christ had they known that the kingdom of the Gentiles would be greatly diminished from their clutches through Paul's Gospel. They knew of the Kingdom Gospel, but they did NOT know of the Gospel of Grace and its impact until after it was too late.

Thoughts?

MM

Why would Jesus leave,ascend,ifn a glorified body not as a light, if he wasn't finished delivering his good news?

As an aside, why doesn't Christianforumsite.com allow open registration now? Only Facebook,Google, membership registration?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What drove Paul, besides the Judaisers, to go to Jerusalem as described in Acts 15?

To settle once and for all if the gospel required gentiles to become circumcised and observe the law as some trouble-making pharisees were trying to get them to do. All of the apostles agreed that gentiles were saved by grace as they were. Works of law excludes grace and vice versa

Nowhere does scripture declare that about Peter being an apostle to the Gentiles

Peter was the first apostle sent to the gentiles. He, in fact, opened the door for the gentiles to enter the kingdom of God by baptizing Cornelius, thereby putting and end to the Jews' exclusiveness. That was about 3 years after the cross.

 

[Musicmaster]

Why would Jesus leave,ascend,ifn a glorified body not as a light, if he wasn't finished delivering his good news?

As an aside, why doesn't Christianforumsite.com allow open registration now? Only Facebook,Google, membership registration?

I'm not sure I understand your question about Jesus.

As to registering on here, I'm not really sure.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

To settle once and for all if the gospel required gentiles to become circumcised and observe the law as some trouble-making pharisees were trying to get them to do. All of the apostles agreed that gentiles were saved by grace as they were. Works of law excludes grace and vice versa

In a manner of speaking, yes. By the time Paul went to Jerusalem to deal with the problem from the Judaisers, the mystery had already been revealed to Paul with him on his second missionary journey, as I recall. Israel had already rejected Christ Jesus as Messiah long before that time with the Gospel of Grace already in full swing, and the eleven hearing about it for the first time from the news of Gentiles being filled with Holy Spirit without having to become Jews zealous for the Law.

Peter was the first apostle sent to the gentiles. He, in fact, opened the door for the gentiles to enter the kingdom of God by baptizing Cornelius, thereby putting and end to the Jews' exclusiveness. That was about 3 years after the cross.

The Jews put an end to their exclusiveness on their own accord when they stoned Stephen. His testimony before the Sanhedrin was the indictment against them, and their stoning of Stephen was that straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Three years Jesus preached and revealed Himself to Israel, and they bore no fruit of faith in Him as Messiah. Giving Israel one more year after Christ's ascension, that is when they stoned Stephen, which is what set in motion the Lord's preparation of Saul as he persecuted the Church, ultimately bringing him in as a believer after appearing to him on the road to Damascus.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Three years Jesus preached and revealed Himself to Israel, and they bore no fruit of faith in Him as Messiah. Giving Israel one more year after Christ's ascension, that is when they stoned Stephen, which is what set in motion the Lord's preparation of Saul as he persecuted the Church, ultimately bringing him in as a believer after appearing to him on the road to Damascus.

Christ likely confirmed the new covenant with the circumcision for 3.5 years before he was cut off. And then his body, the apostles of the circumcision, confirmed the covenant for another 3.5 years culminating in the head apostle of the church, Peter, opening the door to the gentiles by baptizing Cornelius. This IMO was prophesied in Daniel where it says the messiah would confirm the covenant with the circumcision for one week, which is generally interpreted to mean 7 years. In the midst of that 7 years the messiah was to be cut off, leaving 3.5 years for him to confirm the covenant through his ambassadors. And then with the baptism of Cornelius it was over. The age of the nations had begun

 

[Musicmaster]

Christ likely confirmed the new covenant with the circumcision for 3.5 years before he was cut off. And then his body, the apostles of the circumcision, confirmed the covenant for another 3.5 years culminating in the head apostle of the church, Peter, opening the door to the gentiles by baptizing Cornelius. This IMO was prophesied in Daniel where it says the messiah would confirm the covenant with the circumcision for one week, which is generally interpreted to mean 7 years. In the midst of that 7 years the messiah was to be cut off, leaving 3.5 years for him to confirm the covenant through his ambassadors. And then with the baptism of Cornelius it was over. The age of the nations had begun

That's something that clearly is not from the scriptures so much as it is from roman catholic dogma. Besides, if Peter were such a tall figure in the Church, then why was it that James issued the final decision in Acts 15 concerning the Gentiles? No, sorry, but I simply don't buy that.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That's something that clearly is not from the scriptures so much as it is from roman catholic dogma. Besides, if Peter were such a tall figure in the Church, then why was it that James issued the final decision in Acts 15 concerning the Gentiles? No, sorry, but I simply don't buy that.

MM

Peter by all indications was the lead Apostle; it was his job to proclaim the gospel. James was head of the Jerusalem church; he wasn't sent to proclaim the gospel.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That's something that clearly is not from the scriptures so much as it is from roman catholic dogma.

Roman catholic dogma in what way? I don't follow catholic teachings

 

[MeowFlower]

I'm not sure I understand your question about Jesus.

Paul's gospel,as he called it numerous times,is predicated on his claim that Jesus met him on the road to Damascus that Paul was traveling so to hunt down and execute Apostate Jews who followed Christ.
It is said he was given instructions to bring the gospel to the non-Jews,Gentiles.

The Apostles of Jesus were already charged to do this in the Great Commission.
Per Paul's account of the encounter,why would Jesus do that?

The implication is Jesus ascended before finishing his Gospel mission.
Jesus ascended in a glorified body,not as a light.



[/QUOTE]As to registering on here, I'm not really sure.

MM. [/QUOTE] I didn't ask about CC registration. I asked about the site you moderated(?), Christianforumsite. That's not Christian Chat is it?

 

[GWH]

Also, please keep in mind that I can't see your facial expressions nor the inflections in your voice to know precisely when there is humor being applied. I have a great sense of humor, but since you've already written my off as lacking in that area...whatever...

I've placed you on ignore in order to avoid future problems with your inability to communicate with reason and etiquette.

MM

I guess you ignored the smiley face following my joke, and you seem to ignore Scripture that many of us have been sharing that teach there is only one Gospel and one Kingdom in which we serve God every day of the week. Capice?

 

[Musicmaster]

Peter by all indications was the lead Apostle; it was his job to proclaim the gospel. James was head of the Jerusalem church; he wasn't sent to proclaim the gospel.

Really?

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

That was commanded of ALL the disciples, not just Peter. The fact is, the Kingdom Gospel declined along with the eleven, as the Gospel of Grace through Paul grew. Pointing at only ONE instance of Peter being with Gentiles, that proves nothing in relation to your claim. Peter was not the chief apostle for very long. They all ended up dead as Paul's Gospel continued to spread across the world to this very day, having gone to every nation.

MM

 

[vassal]

Really?

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

That was commanded of ALL the disciples, not just Peter. The fact is, the Kingdom Gospel declined along with the eleven, as the Gospel of Grace through Paul grew. Pointing at only ONE instance of Peter being with Gentiles, that proves nothing in relation to your claim. Peter was not the chief apostle for very long. They all ended up dead as Paul's Gospel continued to spread across the world to this very day, having gone to every nation.

MM

Acts 15:7 (NKJV):
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them, "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe."

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul's gospel,as he called it numerous times,is predicated on his claim that Jesus met him on the road to Damascus that Paul was traveling so to hunt down and execute Apostate Jews who followed Christ.
It is said he was given instructions to bring the gospel to the non-Jews,Gentiles.

The Apostles of Jesus were already charged to do this in the Great Commission.
Per Paul's account of the encounter,why would Jesus do that?

Good question. Well, if we look at this, we will see Jesus prophesying what was to come, but not in totality:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

This fits like a glove the ministry of Jesus, in that He sought to bring Israel into faith in Him as Messiah, and after some three years, they were unfruitful, and so the Father spoke to give them one more year, and if they are not fruitful with faith, they should be cut off. The stoning of Stephen a year after the ascension of Christ was that point at which the Lord cut down that fig tree (Israel) because of their continued rejection of Christ as Messiah.

This brought about a pause to the prophetic program of the Lord and the ushering in of the dispensation of grace, whereby Gentiles could be brought into salvation apart from and in spite of Israel, which also included believing Jews.

It was the Lord's plan all along:

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Who were/are those princes? They were/are the prince demons who orchestrated the crucifixion of Christ Jesus.

So, all of this being in the Lord's knowledge, and His contingency plan hidden in Him until revealed to Paul, nothing went astray from the Lord's plan all along. Why He planned things this way, we have hints about that too from scripture, but that is a longer discussion.

The implication is Jesus ascended before finishing his Gospel mission.
Jesus ascended in a glorified body,not as a light.

He completed HIs Gospel mission precisely as He knew it would play out. Nothing caught Him by surprise, and never will. That's what adds to the confusion in your question.

I didn't ask about CC registration. I asked about the site you moderated(?), Christianforumsite. That's not Christian Chat is it?

Ahh, ok. No, I left CFC for good because of a severe pride issue within one of the moderators. I never was a moderator there.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Acts 15:7 (NKJV):
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them, "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe."

I never did say Peter never spoke to any of the Gentiles, but we ALSO know that Paul had to rebuke Peter for his hypocrisy among the Gentiles. So, if Peter were such a giant in building the Gospel among the Gentiles, I sure can't find such a voluminous constellation of Churches mentioned anywhere that were planted by him compared to those of Paul. Perhaps the Lord forgot to have that included in the NT?

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That was commanded of ALL the disciples, not just Peter. The fact is, the Kingdom Gospel declined along with the eleven, as the Gospel of Grace through Paul grew. Pointing at only ONE instance of Peter being with Gentiles, that proves nothing in relation to your claim. Peter was not the chief apostle for very long. They all ended up dead as Paul's Gospel continued to spread across the world to this very day, having gone to every nation.

You really seem to have a dull or obtuse spirit. Peter himself said he was sent to open the door to the gentiles, yet for some reason you feel a need to gainsay that

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Acts 15:7

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:13-14

And it's obvious that the Jerusalem church and apostles believed in the gospel of grace, because Peter explicitly said so, but again, you want to gainsay that

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:8-9
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11

 

[Musicmaster]

You really seem to have a dull or obtuse spirit. Peter himself said he was sent to open the door to the gentiles, yet for some reason you feel a need to gainsay that

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Acts 15:7

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:13-14

And it's obvious that the Jerusalem church and apostles believed in the gospel of grace, because Peter explicitly said so, but again, you want to gainsay that

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:8-9
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11

It looks like ad hominem is also a part of your forte' like some other here. Attacking even the spirit of another, that just makes no sense as to why you would go there. That's an evil, wicked thing to launch against another, and speaks loud volumes to your not wanting to keep the conversation fixated strictly upon the topics. I will place you on ignore along with all the others of that stripe.

MM

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Stay well clear of these guys.

Which ones? The Acts 2 dispensationalists? The Acts 9 dispensationalists? Or the Acts 28 dispensationalists? Or, are they not all 'hyper' according to the view of the others???

Amen.