The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[kleronomos]

Fluff. Having nothing to do with the texts I listed and you spelled out.

Then feel free to leave it out of the conversation

 

[kleronomos]

Same point being made in Philippians 3:19 [but in a negative way], "who *mind* earthly things"... yet this is what I see continually from the "POST-tribs'" viewpoint... continually setting their "minds" on Israel's EARTHLY things (as though WE ARE "Israel". NOT.)

And what does that mean? The church is not His inheritance?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The church is not His inheritance?

Ever read Psalm 82:8?

"Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."



Or Psalm 2?

7I will proclaim the decree

spoken to Me by the LORD:

“You are My Son;

today I have become Your Father.c

8Ask Me, and I will make the nations Your inheritance,

the ends of the earth Your possession.

 

[kleronomos]

[may the readers recall: "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are EQUIVALENT the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the TRIB YRS... the SECOND ONE being "WARS [and rumors of wars]"... the FIRST one being the AC]

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


Are you saying that UNTIL the last 7 years of this age that SATAN is not walking around seeking to devour?
He isn't using his minions to lie and deceive and take power and suppress anything going on in the world?


Revelation 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Like wise are you saying up until the last 7 years of this age that there has been no power given by God to take peace from the earth? and no one has been killing each other?


Before I do this for all the seals i WILL stop here and ask you HOW ARE


SINCE NOTHING CAN COMMENCE UNTIL ALL THE SEVANTS ARE SEALED HOW ARE THE SEALS ONLY BEGUN AFTER IT COMMENCES

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: 'the SAME ENTITY to whom / of whom "RAPTURE [/SNATCH]" (yet future) SOLELY pertains also! (not to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)'

WHAT A LOT OF WORDS FOR 'LAST GENERATION'. OBVIOUSLY NONE OF THOSE ARE ALIVE AND REMAINING.

"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has spanned [now] some near-2000 years of existence on this earth, since the first century. [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]




What are you saying here about "LAST GENERATION"??

(esp since I went on to speak of "OT SAINTS" [all dead, at this point]; TRIB SAINTS [not existing as "SAINTS" yet... they come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" / IN/DURING/WITHIN the Trib yrs (FUTURE to us); and MK saints [who are not even BORN till after His RETURN to the earth, when their parents will bring forth children/offspring IN the MK age, long after "RAPTURE" has occurred]... NONE OF THESE other "saints" are connected with the "RAPTURE" truths ("RAPTURE / SNATCH" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]... )

 

[Marilyn]

`

But, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 are very clear about there being just ONE resurrrection of believers, and Rev 20:5 specifically calls the resurrrection of Trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection.

And, by the time of the the Tribulation, the VAST majority of the "Body of Christ" will have already died and been in heaven. Remember, there has been over 2,000 years since the "Body" was formed. So the living believers left will be a mere fraction of the total number.

But the "Body of Christ" more commonly thought of as "the Church" isn't the issue or key at all. Because 1 Cor 15:23 makes clear that at that single resurrrection of believers, it will be for "those who belong to Him". Now, can it be argued that believers in the OT don't belong to Him? Ofr course not. So we know from Scripture that ALL believers, from Adam on, will be resurrected at the same event, which is "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.

`(Jesus said) Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.` (John 5: 28 & 29)

Two TYPES of resurrection - to life or to condemnation. This is for those in the graves at the great White Throne. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15) They are judged according to their works. (Rev. 20: 12)

Note however that the Body of Christ, the believers are NOT judged according to their works but are in Christ who has taken our judgment upon Himself. We are changed in a twinkling of an eye. And many are not even in the grave when that happens.

 

[Marilyn]

NO
He rules from the start.
Comes to earth conquering and warring.

What happens in the middle is the demand for his worship of the jews.

`And he was given a mouth speaking blasphemies and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.` (Rev. 13: 5)

 

[Marilyn]

And at the feast of trumpets the last trumpet is blown.
Last trump.
At the feast of trumpets.
Every year.

The `trumpet` refers to God`s voice, (Rev. 1: 10). And as the Feast of Trumpets is for Israel then it refers to them. The Last trump of 1 Cor. 15: 52 is for the believer in the Body of Christ. It refers to the last prophetic voice of God to us while on earth.

 

[Marilyn]

The sons of God/Jacob/Israel/the bride/the body of Christ/Christians/New Creatures/the Saved/the church/the Called/the Chosen/Gods elect/the elect/ONE BODY, many members/all made one/ONE SPIRIT/

One wonders why God even bothered to make - the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ if we are all one as you say.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Are you saying that UNTIL the last 7 years of this age that SATAN is not walking around seeking to devour?

Nope. Not saying that.

However, "[G5100] A CERTAIN ONE" will not be, until then (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5; 2Th2:9a / 8a; Dan11:36-37; Dan9:27a[26b]; Rev6:2; 1Jn2:18; etc, etc...)...

...aka "the man of sin"... the "AC"... the rider on the white horse WITH "A BOW" (where "bow" often means "DECEIT")... "the prince that SHALL COME"... "[ye have heard that] antichrist SHALL COME"... the INITIAL "birth PANG" of many more "PANGS" that must unfold upon the earth over those "7 yrs";



however, PRESENTLY Satan/the devil indeed is walking about, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour... (not the AC / man of sin [he's not here on the earthly scene in his role YET]--you do know the difference between "Satan / the devil" and the "AC / man of sin," right?)

 

[kleronomos]

Ever read Psalm 82:8?

"Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."



Or Psalm 2?

7I will proclaim the decree

spoken to Me by the LORD:

“You are My Son;

today I have become Your Father.c

8Ask Me, and I will make the nations Your inheritance,

the ends of the earth Your possession.

HOW ABOUT GIVING BACK TO ME SOMETHING LIKE this but for the 'church'.

Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam,

HE SET THE BOUNDS OF THE PEOPLE ACCORDING TO THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

9 For the LORD's portion is His people

Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.



OR FOR GATHERING 'JUST THE CHURCH' WITH SOMETHING LIKE

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times HE MIGHT GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST BOTH OF WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN AND WHICH ARE ON EARTH even in Him

AGAIN, ALWAYS TRING TO BRING TOGETHER. MAKING ONE.

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:


IF THE CHURCH IS NOT HERE FOR THE TRIB THEN HOW IS THIS NOT MADE VOID?

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.


NO PRAYERS FOR THOSE GOING THROUGH TRIBULATION OF THE END TIME? WHY SEND TWO IF REMOVING 2 BILLION? HOW CAN ANYONE COME TO FAITH IF THERE IS NO ONE THERE TO HEAR IT FROM?


Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?


AND HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER?

 

[Gardenias]

The Bible is not a theological textbook, so God will not tell you things which you should be able to perceive and discern by the help of the Holy Spirit.

1. That issue has already been addressed in Scripture. But you have failed to see that the divine Restrainer -- the Holy Spirit -- will be "taken out of the way" so that the Antichrist may take full control of the world (2 Thessalonians 2). Where else would He go except back to Heaven, from where He was sent to earth on the day of Pentecost, AD 30?

2. And since the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ) are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and also baptized into that Body by the Spirit) when the Holy Spirit returns to Heaven, so do the saints of God. And that is why "the Church" is not mentioned once while the 6th and 7th seal judgments are poured out as the wrath of God upon the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked (Rev 6-18).

3. It should also be noted that God will send "strong delusion" upon all the inhabitants of the world (during the reign of the Antichrist) so that "they might be damned". But since Christians are not subject to damnation, it follows that they cannot be placed under that strong delusion, which means they must be in Heaven.

4. Lastly the Marriage of the Lamb requires that the Bride of Christ (the Church) be present in Heaven so that she may become "the Lamb's Wife". This is just prior to the Second Coming of Christ to earth with all His saints and angels (referred to as "clouds"). So while God pours our His wrath upon the earth, He blesses His saints in Heaven. Then they come with Christ to witness how He deals with the enemies of God, Christ and Israel.

So you are saying and I agree when the Holy Ghost leaves the earth and returns to heaven so do the believing faithful. If I'm understanding you correctly this would be at the time the antichrist is revealed and is it mid before God's wrath. We shall have no part of HIS wrath.

So where does Rev.13: 7 fit where he ac makes war against the saints?

 

[kleronomos]

One wonders why God even bothered to make - the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ if we are all one as you say.

IS THAT AN ANSWER? You act like GOD SPOKE OF THE BODY OF CHRIST AS AN ENTITY UNTO ITS OWN. IF SO THEN POINT IT OUT.

JESUS IS THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW. ALL MADE ONE. ONLY PRE TRIB TRIES TO SEPARATE THEM.


Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As He spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,




John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the pro



1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


GET THIS RIGHT

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[kleronomos]

Nope. Not saying that.

However, "[G5100] A CERTAIN ONE" will not be, until then (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5; 2Th2:9a / 8a; Dan11:36-37; Dan9:27a[26b]; Rev6:2; 1Jn2:18; etc, etc...)...

...aka "the man of sin"... the "AC"... the rider on the white horse WITH "A BOW" (where "bow" often means "DECEIT")... "the prince that SHALL COME"... "[ye have heard that] antichrist SHALL COME"... the INITIAL "birth PANG" of many more "PANGS" that must unfold upon the earth over those "7 yrs";



however, PRESENTLY Satan/the devil indeed is walking about, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour... (not the AC / man of sin [he's not here on the earthly scene in his role YET]--you do know the difference between "Satan / the devil" and the "AC / man of sin," right?)

At what point do you think to start acknowledging the time SHORTENED?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.



9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.


16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.





Isaiah 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

 

[FreeGrace2]

a hope having in God which also they themselves await,

they must wait as they have not yet gone to sleep. There is a time 'element' there.

a resurrection there is about to be

Once that death comes a resurrection IS ABOUT TO BE


OF THE JUST

WHICH COMES IMMEDIATELY. WHY? BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED.

SAVED FROM WHAT? DEATH AND WRATH.

SAVED FROM REMAINING IN BONDAGE TO DEATH UNTIL THE RESURRECTION OF THE 'UNJUST' the un saved, those who chose death and not life, those who chose poorly, those who chose the ways of the world, those who worshipped other gods, THE DEAD, THE SPIRITUALLY DEAD, THE UNSAVED FROM DEATH, THOSE WHO DID NOT ENDURE TO THE END, THOSE WHO TOOK THE MARK OF THE BEAST, THOSE WHO WERE DECEIVED, THOSE WHO TAUGHT FALSE DOCTRINES OF MAN MAKING VOID THE WORDS OF GOD, etc.


both


and of unjust.

THE RESURRECTION OF THE 'UNJUST' the un saved, those who chose death and not life, those who chose poorly, those who chose the ways of the world, those who worshipped other gods, THE DEAD, THE SPIRITUALLY DEAD, THE UNSAVED FROM DEATH, THOSE WHO DID NOT ENDURE TO THE END, THOSE WHO TOOK THE MARK OF THE BEAST, THOSE WHO WERE DECEIVED, THOSE WHO TAUGHT FALSE DOCTRINES OF MAN MAKING VOID THE WORDS OF GOD, etc.

WHAT IS IT THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO HAPPEN BEFORE DEATH? FORGIVENESS. WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO. WHY SO MANY 'DIED' AND DIDN'T GO TO GOD. THEY COULDN'T BE PERFECT. SO WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT OF BEING 'MADE PERFECT' BY HIS BLOOD IF IT DID NOTHING?


WE ARE MADE NEW CREATURES. IT IS A CHANGE IN LIFE. IT IS A CHANGE IN DEATH. WE ARE SEPARATED. SET ASIDE. SANCTIFIED. JUSTIFIED. WE HAVE BECOME HEAVENLY. THIS IS NO LONGER OUR WORLD. WE ALREADY SIT IN HEAVEN. WE ARE NOT OF THEM. WE HAVE COME OUT FROM THEM.

HOW IS IT YOU DON'T KNOW THIS, FEEL THIS. LIVE THIS RIGHT NOW. EVERY SECOND YOU ARE ALIVE KNOWING YOU WILL NEVER SUFFER DEATH AS THOSE WHO CHOSE DEATH. YOU CHOSE LIFE. YOU CHOSE GODS WAY. YOU CHOSE WISELY. THERE ARE BENEFITS THAT WE DON'T WAIT FOR. THEY ARE HERE NOW. THEY BRING YOU PEACE. WE ARE TOLD ALL THESE THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

DON'T FEAR WHO CAN KILL YOU FLESH. WHY? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR CONTINUING IN LIFE. SUCKS IF YOU CHOSE DEATH BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO BE DEATH FOOD. YOU ARE GOING TO DEATH.


WE ARE GOING TO LIFE. GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD. GOD IS THE GOD OF THE AWAKE AND NOT THE SLEEPING. GOD IS OUR GOD AND OUR GOD IS LIFE ETERNAL. THAT STARTED THE DAY YOU CAME TO FAITH. NOTHING ON THIS PLANET CAN EVER KILL YOU. YOU HAVE ALL POWER BECAUSE YOU ARE ALREADY SAVED. THERE IS NO 'DYING' IN YOUR FUTURE. THERE IS NO SLEEP IN YOUR FUTURE. THERE IS ONLY RESURRECTION IN YOUR SPIRITUAL BODY TO GO BE WITH CHRIST OR

IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN THE MOST PRIVILEGED PLACE IN ALL ETERNITY FOR A SON OF GOD AND THAT IS TO BE HERE WHEN SATAN IS CAST FROM HEAVEN TO THE EARTH AND YOU GET TO STAND FOR OUR FATHER, OUR CREATOR

DO YOU REALIZE THAT YOU WILL HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GIVE SOMETHING TO GOD THAT VERY FEW WILL EVER BE EVER TO SAY. THAT GOD WILL ALWAYS KNOW.


John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

IF WE ARE ABLE TO DO THAT WHEN THE ADVERSARY IS HERE TRYING TO DECEIVE US INTO DOING THE OPPOSITE
THAT IS FOREVER. I CAN'T EVER FIGURE OUT HOW TO THANK GOD NEAR ENOUGH FOR ALL THE BLESSING I RECEIVE EVERYDAY.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?







READ THESE THROUGH MY EYES,

John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour Me.

50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.


HOW COULD HE HAVE MADE THIS STATEMENT AND IT NOT BE TRUTH?

OR THIS ONE?


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day and he saw it, and was glad.

IF ABRAHAM WERE DEAD IN THE GROUND OR SLEEPING HOW DID HE SEE IT? HOW DID HE REJOICE? AND this is not talking about Melchizedek.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



Of course none of these verses would apply to a pre trib 'church' as they are not accounted as sheep for the slaughter
Romans 8:27 And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



37. hagiazó
Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 37 hagiázō (from 40 /hágios, "holy") – to regard as special (sacred), i.e. holy ("set apart"), sanctify. See 40 (hagios).


1344. dikaioó
Strong's Concordance
dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Definition: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Usage: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1344 dikaióō (from dikē, "right, judicial-approval") – properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right, i.e. conformed to a proper standard (i.e. "upright").



1392. doxazó ►
Strong's Concordance
doxazó: to render or esteem glorious (in a wide application)
Original Word: δοξάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: doxazó
Phonetic Spelling: (dox-ad'-zo)
Definition: to render or esteem glorious (in a wide application)
Usage: I glorify, honor, bestow glory on.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1392 doksázō (from 1391 /dóksa, "glory") – glorify; properly, to ascribe weight by recognizing real substance (value). See 1391 (doksa).

"Glorifying (1392 /doksázō) God" means valuing Him for who He really is. For example, "giving (ascribing) glory to God" personally acknowledges God in His true character (essence).



Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


WASHED CLEAN, SIN REMOVED, MEANS NO DEATH. I would normally go back and fix everything but I am just going to let it go as it is.

I asked for a better understanding of a verse if I'm wrong, and you reply with this? An extremely long and winding post. There's no way I am going to even try to absorb it, much less respond to it.

I am getting the notion that you believe in "soul sleep". That when a person dies, their soul goes nighty-nite. Or have I misunderstood?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It seems you continue to be confused.

When I talk about the resurrection when believers receive their glorified body (imperishable), that one is a singular one, where ALL believers, (dead AND alive) will receive their new glorified bodies. Your "definition" means nothing. The dead will have been with jesus SINCE they died and they will come to earth with Him. 1 Thess 4 makes that perfectly clear.

No, it seems you are not getting "clear" what 1Th4 is conveying:

They will not "come to earth with [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] Him" UNTIL they first "shall RISE [be RESURRECTED ('to stand AGAIN' [on the earth])," that is, BODILY [like Jesus did!], and then just after that, be "caught up" [IN THE AIR] FOR the "UNIONed-WITH [G4862]" thing that both components (of the "one body" [and no one else!]) will experience / participate in;

IOW, the "G4862 [UNIONed-WITH]" thing happens BY MEANS OF the "SNATCH / RAPTURE" thing (and NOT *PRIOR TO* it, as you are illustrating it to be); This requires their BODIES [the ones that DIED] to be "resurrected ['to stand AGAIN']" PRIOR TO THAT POINT... which is the point being made in 1Th4 (not what *you've* said about this passage).

I'm tired of all your highly distracting boldings, larger text, brackets, quotes, underlinings and italics. Do you just like to play with your posts or something? They are too distracting to read. One gets lost in all that gobbledy-gook formatting.

Just type out your thoughts and leave all that formatting alone. Could you do that?

You think I'm missing the point of 1 Thess 4. Your thought are in error. I know exactly what it is conveying. It is explaining what will occur when the Lord Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent with all the dead saints with Him, and He gives them glorified bodies before He give the living believers their glorified bodies.

No mystery there. And no need for all that highly distracting formatting.

 

[Marilyn]

IS THAT AN ANSWER? You act like GOD SPOKE OF THE BODY OF CHRIST AS AN ENTITY UNTO ITS OWN. IF SO THEN POINT IT OUT.

JESUS IS THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW. ALL MADE ONE. ONLY PRE TRIB TRIES TO SEPARATE THEM.


Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for He hath visited and redeemed His people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As He spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,




John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the pro



1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


GET THIS RIGHT

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Hi kleronomos,

`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks, or to the Church of God.` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

`(God the Father) gave Him (Jesus) to be HEAD over all things to the church which is His Body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.` (Eph. 1: 22 & 23)

Jesus is also KING of Israel. (Matt. 2: 2)

And also KING of the Nations. (Rev. 15: 3)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is only ONE resurrection for the saved. Read these verses and look for how many resurrections are referenced.
Matt 22:30
Luke 14:14

These are referencing that which will take place "AT/IN the LAST DAY" (that is, AT and FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [age], aka "THE LAST DAY")

Do you ever proof read your posts, before you post them? If not, you should. This "sentence is ridiculous. "AT/IN" and "AT and FOR". What in the world are you trying to communicate?

Please write in normal fashion. Maybe you do this so that posters can't figure out what you have said and therefore can't respond to what they can't figure out.

You've never found it curious that in Acts 23:6, Acts 24:15, Acts 24:21, and Acts 26:23 (in the contexts surrounding Paul's arrest and trials before their human / earthly BEMA), that Paul uses the word "resurrection" (and never states it as "the resurrection" [with definite article]), in these contexts?? [same in Acts 17:32, btw... no definite article there either]

Both Matt 22:30 and Luke 14:14 DO include the definite article "te" before "resurrection".

That Acts 24:15 doesn't is immaterial since these other 2 verses do use it. Anyway, it is clear that Acts 24:15 shows only 2 resurrections: one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

And 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough. "when He comes", "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected. Just one resurrection.

Believe what you wish, FG2.

I believe what the Bible says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
But, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 are very clear about there being just ONE resurrrection of believers, and Rev 20:5 specifically calls the resurrrection of Trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection.

And, by the time of the the Tribulation, the VAST majority of the "Body of Christ" will have already died and been in heaven. Remember, there has been over 2,000 years since the "Body" was formed. So the living believers left will be a mere fraction of the total number.

But the "Body of Christ" more commonly thought of as "the Church" isn't the issue or key at all. Because 1 Cor 15:23 makes clear that at that single resurrrection of believers, it will be for "those who belong to Him". Now, can it be argued that believers in the OT don't belong to Him? Ofr course not. So we know from Scripture that ALL believers, from Adam on, will be resurrected at the same event, which is "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.

`
`(Jesus said) Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.` (John 5: 28 & 29)

Two TYPES of resurrection - to life or to condemnation.

Right. 2 types and therefore just 2 resurrections, as the verses I've provided plainly say.

Jn 5:28,29 doesn't indicate that these resurrections occur together, and the context of Scripture show that they are 1,000 years apart.

This is for those in the graves at the great White Throne. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15) They are judged according to their works. (Rev. 20: 12)

Correct. Now, do you know the result of being judged according to their works?

Note however that the Body of Christ, the believers are NOT judged according to their works but are in Christ who has taken our judgment upon Himself. We are changed in a twinkling of an eye. And many are not even in the grave when that happens.

2 Cor 5:10 says believers will be judged. In fact, the "Judgment Seat of Christ" IS a judgment.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[cv5]

"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has spanned [now] some near-2000 years of existence on this earth, since the first century. [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]




What are you saying here about "LAST GENERATION"??

(esp since I went on to speak of "OT SAINTS" [all dead, at this point]; TRIB SAINTS [not existing as "SAINTS" yet... they come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" / IN/DURING/WITHIN the Trib yrs (FUTURE to us); and MK saints [who are not even BORN till after His RETURN to the earth, when their parents will bring forth children/offspring IN the MK age, long after "RAPTURE" has occurred]... NONE OF THESE other "saints" are connected with the "RAPTURE" truths ("RAPTURE / SNATCH" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]... )

Just thought that I would re-post this. Pre-wrath rapture well represented here....

1 Thes 1:10
and to await His Son from the heavens, whom He raised out from the dead--Jesus, the one delivering (G4506) us from the coming wrath.

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/1-10.htm

HELPS Word-studies
4506 rhýomai (from eryō, "draw to oneself") – properly, draw (pull) to oneself; to rescue ("snatch up"); to draw or rescue a person to and for the deliverer.

In Mt 6:13 ("the Lord's Prayer"), 4506 (rhýomai) is used in the closing sentence, "Deliver (4506 /rhýomai) us from evil" – i.e. "Deliver me to Yourself and for Yourself." That is, "Lord deliver me out of my (personal) pains and bring me to You and for You."

[4506 (rhýomai) properly means, "to snatch out for oneself" (H. Cremer, G. Winer).

J. Thayer, "Properly, 4506 (rhýomai) means to draw out . . . to one's self" – i.e. to rescue for oneself (to oneself). 4506 /rhýomai ("rescue") implies removing someone in the midst (presence) of danger or oppression, i.e. delivered "right out of" and to (for) the rescuer.]