The False Church

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L

LPT

Guest
LPT, I did not even find any letter of Calvin to king Henry.

Are you sure the information you are giving us is true?
Well it's your free will to choose, God knows the choice you made, are you freely choosing a choice or is your choice chosen?

God paused the day for choices to be made on a battlefield as written in the book of Jasher, do you believe that? if yes then is God capable of doing things similair in every day life and your life?, I believe it so..

Joshua 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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Well it's your free will to choose, God knows the choice you made, are you freely choosing a choice or is your choice chosen?

God paused the day for choices to be made on a battlefield as written in the book of Jasher, do you believe that? if yes then is God capable of doing things similair in every day life and your life?, I believe it so..

Joshua 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
How is this a response to my question (whether you are sure that information you gave us about Calvin's letter to king Henry is true)?
 
L

LPT

Guest
How is this a response to my question (whether you are sure that information you gave us about Calvin's letter to king Henry is true)?
I didn't think so but I will point you to the volumes of letters the link is to the second volume of four of Calvins letters, not quite sure if it was in this volume or one of the other three volumes, but read upon the four volumes if your truly interested in John Calvin theology.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45463/45463-h/45463-h.htm
 
L

LPT

Guest
At the time when persecution suddenly began to rage in France John Calvin escaped to Strasburg, and there composed his Institute, the finest work of Reformation literature. He wrote with a view to show that there was nothing in the Protestant religion to alarm the government, and that the change it demanded was in the Church, not in the State. He dealt more largely with theology than with practical religion, and did not disclose those ideas on the government of religious society that have made him the equal of Luther in History. Geneva, when he came there in 1536, was a small walled town of less than 20,000 inhabitants, with so narrow a territory that France was within cannon range on one side and Savoy on the other. It was secure in the alliance and protection of Berne, which came almost to the gates; for what is now the canton of Vaud was, until the French Revolution, a Bernese dependency. It had been an episcopal city, but the bishop had retired to Annecy, and the Genevese Reformation had been at the same time a Genevese Revolution. Power over Church and State passed to the commonwealth, to the municipality. The new masters, rejoicing in their independence, did not at once settle down; the place was disturbed by factions, and was not a scene of edification.

Calvin set to work to reform the community, to introduce public order and domestic virtue. He was a foreigner by birth, and not conciliatory in disposition; and after a brief experiment, the offended Genevese cast him out. He was not yet thirty. He returned to Strasburg and rewrote his Institute, expounding his theocratic theory of the government of the Church by the Church, and of the State by the union of Church and State. He was present at the Diet of Ratisbon, and saw the Lutherans in a yielding mood, when Melanchthon and Contarini, with the urgent mediator Gropper of Cologne, were very near understanding each other. That event, as everybody knows, did not come off; but everybody does not know the consequences, for we shall see that the Counter-Reformation sprang from those conferences at Ratisbon. Calvin had no part in Irenics. He was persuaded that the work before them was to create not a new church, but a new world, to remodel not doctrine only, but society; that the chasm could never be bridged, but must grow wider with time. That conviction was not yet strongly held by the German Lutherans, and they do not all hold it at the present day. During his absence Cardinal Sadolet wrote to the Genevese, intreating them not to break up the unity of Latin Christendom; for Geneva was the first town beyond the Teutonic range that went over. Sadolet was not only reputed the finest Latinist of the age, but he was the most gracious of the Roman prelates, a friend of Erasmus, an admirer of Contarini, and the author of a commentary on St. Paul in which Lutheran Justification was suspected. The Genevese were not then so rich in literature as they afterwards became, and they were not prepared to answer the challenge, when Calvin did it for them. In 1541, after a change of government, he was recalled. He came back on condition that his plans for the Church were accepted, and his position remained unshaken until his death.

The Strasburg clergy, in losing him, wrote that he was unsurpassed among men, and the Genevese felt his superiority and put him on the commission which revised the Constitution. It was not changed in any important way, and the influence of the Geneva Constitution upon Calvin was greater than his influence on the government of Geneva. The city was governed by a Lesser or Inner Council of twenty-five, composed of the four syndics, the four of last year, and as many more as made up the twenty-five. These belonged to the ruling families, and were seldom renewed. Whilst the Lesser Council administered, through the syndics, the Great Council of two hundred was the legislature. Its members were appointed, not by popular election, but by the Lesser Council. Between the twenty-five and the two hundred were the sixty, who only appeared when the Lesser Council wanted to prepare a majority in the Greater Council. Its function was to mediate between the executive and the legislature. It was a system of concentric circles; for the twenty-five became the sixty by adding the necessary number of thirty-five, and the sixty became the two hundred by the addition of one hundred and forty members. Beyond this was the assembly of citizens, who only met twice a year to elect the syndics and the judge, from names presented by the Lesser Council. The popular element was excluded. Beyond the citizens were the burghers, who did not enjoy the franchise. Between the two there was material for friction and a constitutional struggle, the struggle from which Rousseau proceeded, and which had some share in preparing the French Revolution.
 
L

LPT

Guest
Upon this background Calvin designed his scheme of Church government and discipline. His purpose was to reform society as well as doctrine. He did not desire orthodoxy apart from virtue, but would have the faith of the community manifested in its moral condition. And as the mere repression of scandals would promote hypocrisy, it was necessary that private life should be investigated by the same authority that was obeyed in public. Teaching and preaching belong to the clergy alone. But jurisdiction is exercised by the pastors in conjunction with the elders. And the elders were the choice of the civil power, two representing the Lesser Council, four the sixty, and six the two hundred. That was all that he could obtain. His success was incomplete, because the government worked with him. A hostile government would be more adapted to his purpose, for then the elders would be elected, not by the State, but by the congregation. With a weak clergy the civil magistrate would predominate over the Church, having a majority in the consistory. While Calvin lived no such thing was likely to happen. The Church co-operated with the State to put down sin, the one with spiritual weapons, the other with the material sword. The moral force assisted the State, the physical force assisted the Church. A scheme substantially the same was introduced by Capito at Frankfort in 1535.

But the secret of Calvin's later influence is that he claimed for the Church more independence than he obtained. The surging theory of State omnipotence did not affect his belief in the principle of self-government. Through him an idea of mutual check was introduced which became effective at a later time, though nothing more unlike liberty could be found than the state of Geneva when he was the most important man there. Every ascertainable breach of divine law was punished with rigour. Political error was visited with the sword, and religious error with the stake. In this spirit Calvin carried out his scheme of a Christian society and crushed opposition. Already, before he came, the Council had punished vice with imprisonment and exile, and the idea was traceable back to the Middle Ages. It had never found so energetic an advocate.

The crown was set upon the system by the trial and execution of Servetus. The Germans, in their aversion for metaphysics, had avoided the discussion of questions regarding the Trinity, which in the south of Europe excited more attention. As early as 1531, long before the rise of the Socinians, the Spaniard Servetus taught anti-Trinitarianism, and continued to do it for more than twenty years. He remained isolated, and it was not until after his death that his opinions attracted followers. Calvin, who thought him dangerous, both by his doctrines and his talent, declared that if ever he came to Geneva he would never leave it alive. He caused him to be denounced to the Inquisition, and he was imprisoned at Vienne on the Rhone, tried, and condemned to be burnt at a slow fire, on evidence supplied by Calvin in seventeen letters. Servetus escaped, and on his way to Italy stopped at Geneva, under a false name, for he knew who it was that had set the machinery of the Holy Office in motion against him, and who had said that he deserved to be burnt wherever he could be found. He was recognised, and Calvin caused him to be arrested and tried without a defender. The authorities at Vienne demanded his extradition, and the Governor of Dauphiny requested that any money Servetus had about him might be sent back to him, as he was to have had it if the execution had occurred in his territory. Calvin disputed with his prisoner, convicted him of heresy, and claimed to have convicted him of Pantheism, and he threatened to leave Geneva if Servetus was not condemned. The Council did not think that the errors of a Spanish scholar who was on his way to Italy were any business of theirs, and they consulted the Swiss churches, hoping to be relieved of a very unpleasant responsibility. The Swiss divines pronounced against Servetus, and he was sentenced to die by fire, although Calvin wished to mitigate the penalty, but refused, at a last interview, the Spaniard's appeal for mercy. The volume which cost Servetus his life was burnt with him, but falling from his neck into the flames, it was snatched from the burning, and may still be seen in its singed condition, a ghastly memorial of Reformation ethics, in the National Library at Paris.

The event at Geneva received the sanction of many leading divines, both of Switzerland and Germany; and things had moved so far since Luther was condemned for his toleration, that Melanchthon could not imagine the possibility of a doubt. Hundreds of humble Anabaptists had suffered a like fate and nobody minded. But the story of the execution at Champel left an indelible and unforgotten scar. For those who consistently admired persecution, it left the estimate of Calvin unchanged. Not so with others, when they learnt how Calvin had denounced Servetus long before to the Catholic Inquisitors in France; how he had done so under the disguise of an intermediary, in a prolonged correspondence; how he had then denied the fact, and had done a man to death who was guilty of no wrong to Geneva, and over whom he had no jurisdiction. It weakened the right of Protestants to complain when they were in the hands of the executioner, and it deprived the terrors of the Inquisition of their validity as an argument in the controversy with Rome. Therefore, with the posting of the Thesis at Wittenberg; with Worms, and Augsburg, and Ratisbon; with the flight of Charles V. before Maurice, and with the Peace of Religion, it marks one of the great days in the Church history of the century. But it obtained still greater significance in the times that were to come. On the whole, though not without exceptions, the patriarchs approved. Their conclusions were challenged by younger and obscurer men, and a controversy began which has not ceased to cause the widest division among men.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I didn't think so but I will point you to the volumes of letters the link is to the second volume of four of Calvins letters, not quite sure if it was in this volume or one of the other three volumes, but read upon the four volumes if your truly interested in John Calvin theology.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45463/45463-h/45463-h.htm
There is no letter to king Henry. Somebody is giving you false information and you are spreading it here without verification.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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Actually, Calvin wrote a condemnation of Henry the VIII in his letter to Farel:

XLVIII.—To Farel.

"The King of England is not represented here. I have no doubt, however, that he may be attempting somewhat elsewhere. In the cause of the Lord he does not deal very favourably of late; three men of the commonalty have been burnt, because they had ventured to express themselves on the subject of the Eucharist in other terms than the royal proclamation tolerated. But that which is worst of all is, that while he tries to arrogate to himself the sole authority, and without being scrupulous as to the means, he tolerates nothing which has not the sanction of his own authority. Thus it will come to pass that Christ shall avail them nothing except by the King's permission. The Lord will avenge this arrogance by some remarkable punishment."

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/45423/45423-h/45423-h.htm
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
I didn't think so but I will point you to the volumes of letters ...if your truly interested in John Calvin theology.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45463/45463-h/45463-h.htm
"He of England [king Henry the VIII] ...prohibits under severe penalties...the priests and bishops who enter upon matrimony; he retains the daily masses; he wishes the seven sacraments to remain as they are: in this way he has a mutilated and torn Gospel, and a Church stuffed full as yet with many toys and trifles. Then, because all do not appear to be of sound mind, he does not suffer the Scripture to circulate in the language of the common people throughout the kingdom; and he has lately put forth a new interdict, by which he warns the people against the reading of the Bible. Moreover he lately burnt a worthy and learned man for denying the presence of Christ after a carnal manner in the bread, whose death has been greatly lamented by all pious and educated persons. Our friends... are..hurt by atrocities of this kind...

So, LPT, regarding reformers and other teachers of gospel, please follow what Calvin said in one of his letters:

"Be careful, therefore, for the future, that you write nothing but what you have ascertained as certain."
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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And here is the sum of the matter:

Revelation 22:11-21 King James Version (KJV)
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
 

Deade

Called of God
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yeshuaofisrael.org
There is no letter to king Henry. Somebody is giving you false information and you are spreading it here without verification.
Someone asked me if I was a Calvinist or an Arminian. I said, Neither! I believe what I learned and I don't care what some Medieval Protestant patriarch decided which of the false doctrines he would carry from the apostate Catholic Church. All these Protestant, Reformation or otherwise, churches are still daughters of the Great Whore. God will no longer wink at our ignorance.

Is it so hard to understand that God knows the future, He knows how we will choose. That still doesn't take away our choice. That is all predestination means, it is not the surreal fabricated reality dreamed up of the Calvinist.

animated-no-smiley-emoticon.gif
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
Someone asked me if I was a Calvinist or an Arminian. I said, Neither! I believe what I learned and I don't care what some Medieval Protestant patriarch decided which of the false doctrines he would carry from the apostate Catholic Church. All these Protestant, Reformation or otherwise, churches are still daughters of the Great Whore. God will no longer wink at our ignorance.

Is it so hard to understand that God knows the future, He knows how we will choose. That still doesn't take away our choice. That is all predestination means, it is not the surreal fabricated reality dreamed up of the Calvinist.

View attachment 186548
I am not sure how is this post of yours related to my post about factual data that some letter does not exist and that some provided information was untrue.