The False Church

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lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
Here are just a few Bible verses that prove predestination, election and reprobation, and God’s sovereignty. I hope it's enough to win you over from the Arminian camp :)
Maybe you misunderstood? You said....
I said that Calvin was the first to correctly interpret the Gospel.
Then someone said
.Outrageous hardly begins to describe the magnitude of your statement. Calvin the first to correctly interpret the gospel. That is arrogant beyond belief.
To which you answered.
Do I need to list those 40 odd verses which support Calvin's teaching and you can come back with 2 or 3 which support Arminius.
Election and Predestination are not the Gospel my friend. Calvin was not the first to interpret the Gospel.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Calvin wrote King Henry the Eighth, “It is better to burn a few (Anabaptists) at the stake, than for thousands to burn in hell.”
This does not comply with Calvin's view of predestination and election.

Calvin taught that elect ones will come to Christ in the right time, so there is no logic in a need to burn "heretics" to save somebody from hell. If Calvin really did write this, he got too emotional and wrong regarding his own theology.

BTW, I was unable to find this in some credible source. Only on pages that are antichristian or antireformation as such.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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LPT, I did not even find any letter of Calvin to king Henry.

Are you sure the information you are giving us is true?
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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USA still, one of the last democratic country, has a death penalty. But the USA do not seem to be a much better place regarding criminality, murder rate, rape etc. compared to countries without a death penalty.

Actually, the opposite seems to be true.
“Let every soul be subject unto the governing authorities. For there is no authority except
from God, and the authorities that exist [speaking of man’s governments and courts] are
appointed by God.… For he [a government or court official] is God’s minister [“servant”
or “magistrate” in some translations] to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he
does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an AVENGER TO EXECUTE
WRATH on him who practices evil” (Romans 13:1-4; New King James Version).

The God of love tells us in such scriptures as Hebrews 12:5-6 that for our own good those who
commit wrong must be corrected. Correction is the God-given means to prevent crime and other
problems. Using strong correction FORCES CHANGE in criminals convicted of lesser offenses
and eliminates entirely the threat of those convicted of violent crimes such as murder.

“Punishment, when meted out in the proper manner, and at the proper time, is one of the
greatest blessings a human being—at any age—can receive!” The reason is that if we do
not receive correction, we will proceed on a course to our own destruction (Proverbs 14:12).

Many people reject God’s clear commandments involving implementation of the death penalty.
And though the death penalty was reinstated by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1976, Americans have
demenstrated a fear to sternly correct evildoers, and are vacillating in their determination to use
the God-given option of executing people for horrible wrongs.


As the late FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover once stated about our modern permissive society,
we have “substituted INDULGENCE for discipline.” The result is that our prisons are full
to overflowing and our society is inundated in violent crime.

As for determining a person’s guilt, there is only one biblical rule: “Whoever kills a person, the
murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but one witness is not sufficient
testimony against a person for the death penalty” (Numbers 35:30). Deuteronomy 17:6 agrees:
“Whoever is worthy of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses,
but he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness” .


In God’s eyes, repeated reprieves and appeals—and now, insistence upon DNA testing to
verify guilt—should not be necessary for death-row inmates.

Ezra 7:26 guides us toward speedy response to crime by stating, “And whosoever will not do the
law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be
unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.”

The criminal mind does not respect authority. The only thing such a person respects is equal or
stronger FORCE! And when that strong force is used immediately to severely punish an offender,
it makes others of like mind think twice before acting likewise.

However, once again, the liberal element in our society says there is little deterrent value in
punishments such as the death penalty. They have a point—but only because of how hesitant
our courts are to use the death penalty!


People who commit crimes are promised a fair trial—NOT a perfect trial. Yet so many of the
habeas corpus appeals (many of which amount to little more than stalling tactics) are procedural
and/or frivolous in nature, nit-picking the court over minor imperfections in court procedure.

The book of Proverbs states, “When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise,”
and “Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware” (Proverbs 21:11; 19:25). People can
learn vicariously from the experiences of others!

The deterrent effect of the death penalty is muted because of current practices. But even
basic understanding of human nature tells us that, if administered properly, the death penalty
would have a significant deterrent effect!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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The God of love tells us in such scriptures as Hebrews 12:5-6 that for our own good those who
commit wrong must be corrected. Correction is the God-given means to prevent crime and other
problems. Using strong correction FORCES CHANGE in criminals convicted of lesser offenses
and eliminates entirely the threat of those convicted of violent crimes such as murder.
The 20 safest countries for travelling:

1. Iceland (no death penalty)
2. New Zealand (no death penalty)
3. Austria (no death penalty)
4. Portugal (no death penalty)
5. Denmark (no death penalty)
6. Canada (no death penalty)
7. The Czech Republic (no death penalty)
8. Singapore (practices death penalty)
9. Japan (practices death penalty)

10. Ireland (no death penalty)
11. Slovenia (no death penalty)
12. Switzerland (no death penalty)
13. Australia (no death penalty)
14. Sweden (no death penalty)
15. Finland (no death penalty)
16. Norway (no death penalty)
17. Germany (no death penalty)
18. Hungary (no death penalty)
19. Bhutan (no death penalty)
20. Mauritius (no death penalty)

Countries by intentional murder rate (from best to worst):

1. Andorra
2. San Marino
3. Monaco
....
7. Japan
8. Iceland
...
16. Switzerland
17. Norway
19. Austria
20. Czech Republic
21. China
22. Portugal
....
128. Cuba
129. Sudan
....
133. United States of America
134. Mongolia
135. Equador

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
https://www.businessinsider.com/safest-countries-in-the-world-2018-6#2-new-zealand-1192-30
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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133. United States of America
The Old Testament of the Bible speaks with perfect plainness on the issue of capital
punishment:“He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death”
(Exodus 21:12).

Genesis 9:6 and Leviticus 24:17 also give full authority to those sitting in judgment to execute a
murderer. Deuteronomy 19:11-13 commands unsparing punishment for such a killer: “…deliver him
into the hand of the AVENGER OF BLOOD, that he may die. Thine eye SHALL NOT PITY HIM,
but thou shalt PUT AWAY THE GUILT of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.”

Strong words, those. The God of the Old Testament clearly favored the death penalty.
The scriptures show that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament.
In the New Testament book of Romans, God REAFFIRMS that authority in Romans 13:1-4

Discipline Promptly

In Proverbs 19:18, God gives us the principle that applies to disobedient children, juvenile delinquents
or hardened criminals. We are told, “Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for
his crying” (Proverbs 19:18). There comes a point for an undisciplined child when there is no (or very
little) hope of correcting bad behavior. Often, a delinquent—and finally a hardened criminal—will result
because the parents were too soft during their child’s early years, when they had the greatest hope of
curbing the child’s self-centered and destructive ways.

As parents and as a society, we are not to “spare for his crying” by lessening the punishment. Proverbs
13:24 admonishes us, “He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him DISCIPLINES HIM
PROMPTLY” (NKJV). For the good of society and the individual, swift, stern justice must be meted
out when wrongs are brought to light.

Ecclesiastes 8:11 tells us the importance of swift punishment when it says, “Because sentence against
an evil work is not EXECUTED SPEEDILY, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them
to DO EVIL.” How clear and wise! When wrongdoing is not immediately punished, then all or almost
all of the deterrent value to any subsequent punishment is lost!
-

The deterrent effect of the death penalty is muted because of current practices.
Having a death penalty, and to not even use it. Lets take for example of California.

"California has a death penalty statute, and has executed thirteen inmates since the
US Supreme Court decided capital punishment was (again) constitutional in 1976."

13 - How many murders happened in California in the same time frame?
You could say it is really not existent as defined in the bible.

I think we should stick to the bible account about discipline, and capital punishment.
Those crime numbers just goes to show how lawless, and lack of morality now in the U.S.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Flawed humans will make mistakes. But that must not stop us from following God’s plain commands!
A swift death penalty was intended by our Creator to deter or restrain additional people from com-
mitting the sin of murder. To stop or delay the death penalty because the courts are afraid of making
a mistake is direct disobedience to God and His laws!

Many a career criminal has already proven he cannot “make it” in normal society; and if he murders,
rapes, robs and commits general mayhem, SO WHAT? He knows he’ll be provided food and shelter
for the rest of his life so that he never has to work again!

Why should he fear to kill? Even though he probably murdered unmercifully, the “merciful” liberals
will see to it that HIS life is spared so that the taxpayers can support him for the next 20, 40 or 60
years in a prison environment where he is “somebody”—a “man among men” so to speak!

We must not get softer on crime, we must get tougher!
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
110
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Flawed humans will make mistakes. But that must not stop us from following God’s plain commands!
A swift death penalty was intended by our Creator to deter or restrain additional people from com-
mitting the sin of murder. To stop or delay the death penalty because the courts are afraid of making
a mistake is direct disobedience to God and His laws!

Many a career criminal has already proven he cannot “make it” in normal society; and if he murders,
rapes, robs and commits general mayhem, SO WHAT? He knows he’ll be provided food and shelter
for the rest of his life so that he never has to work again!

Why should he fear to kill? Even though he probably murdered unmercifully, the “merciful” liberals
will see to it that HIS life is spared so that the taxpayers can support him for the next 20, 40 or 60
years in a prison environment where he is “somebody”—a “man among men” so to speak!

We must not get softer on crime, we must get tougher!
If we are to adhere to the Old Testament law, then we must adhere to all of it and...
Kill people who don't listen to priest, kill witches, homosexuals, fortunetellers, children who strike or curse their parents, adulterers, fornicators, unbelievers, false prophets, an entire town if ONE person worships another God, women who are not virgins on their wedding night, the followers of another religion, blasphemers, or anyone who approaches the Tabernacle, and last but not least, kill people who work on the Sabbath.

Do you get my point?

The LAW was meant for the nations of Israel.
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
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The false church...
First thing I would like to mention is about a word, "church". This word is not what we should be calling ourselves. The first time the people of Elohim gathered they were called, "assembly".
The first time was not when most of you may think. It was under Moses when the instruction was given from the Mt..
Since then we have been given many examples of disobedience so we may not fall into it as they did.
There are many different churches bit only one assembly of Elohim.
The church teaches to live in Messiah, scripture teaches to allow Messiah to grow to maturity in us.
The church teaches that the law is nailed to the Cross. The scriptures point to teachings of men or dogma that have been nailed to the Cross.
The church teaches that the sacrifice's of the, "Old Testament" were fulfilled in Messiah so they no longer apply. Scripture states that the sacrifice's of Israel did cleans sin however did not have power to renew the hearts of men.
The Church teaches that there is an Old Testament and a New Testament.
Truth is there is one testimony and many witnesses.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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If we are to adhere to the Old Testament law, then we must adhere to all of it and...
Kill people who don't listen to priest, kill witches, homosexuals, fortunetellers, children who strike or curse their parents, adulterers, fornicators, unbelievers, false prophets, an entire town if ONE person worships another God, women who are not virgins on their wedding night, the followers of another religion, blasphemers, or anyone who approaches the Tabernacle, and last but not least, kill people who work on the Sabbath.

Do you get my point?

The LAW was meant for the nations of Israel.
The issue I spoke of was of capital punishment, or [the death penalty for murders.]

The scriptures show that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament.
In the New Testament book of Romans, God REAFFIRMS that authority
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
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Maybe you misunderstood? You said....Then someone said To which you answered.


Election and Predestination are not the Gospel my friend. Calvin was not the first to interpret the Gospel.
I would beg to differ, I believe election and predestination are key components of the Gospel. If we don't understand them properly we end up with a distorted view of how a person is saved.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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The issue I spoke of was of capital punishment, or [the death penalty for murders.]

The scriptures show that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament.
In the New Testament book of Romans, God REAFFIRMS that authority
The book of Romans was written by Paul.
Paul was killed by Romans.

Do you really want to live in such situation? Enjoy prosperity, peace and personal freedoms and do not feel sorry that you do not live in a dictature with strong government and severe punishments everywhere.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
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The book of Romans was written by Paul.
Paul was killed by Romans.

Do you really want to live in such situation? Enjoy prosperity, peace and personal freedoms and do not feel sorry that you do not live in a dictature with strong government and severe punishments everywhere.
You are talking about apples and oranges here.
Because Paul was killed, the fact does not take-away what he said.

Why did they kill him, was it for murdering someone?
John 15:20, Luke 21:12, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 10:17
In Rome, the state religion was paganism, and they killed Christians for sport.

Did Paul have a trial for murder, by witnesses convicting him of murder ?
We are to follow the law of the land, unless it goes against Gods commands.

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

I am thankful I live in the U.S., freedoms granted by the founding documents.
But the U.S. does not follow its own laws [like sanctuary states] who let killers
back onto the streets to re-offend, and do not uphold the rule of law.

Do you really want to just let someone who say killed a family member, go free?
There can be no freedoms, without laws!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
You are talking about apples and oranges here.
Because Paul was killed, the fact does not take-away what he said.

Why did they kill him, was it for murdering someone?
John 15:20, Luke 21:12, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 10:17
In Rome, the state religion was paganism, and they killed Christians for sport.

Did Paul have a trial for murder, by witnesses convicting him of murder ?
We are to follow the law of the land, unless it goes against Gods commands.

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

I am thankful I live in the U.S., freedoms granted by the founding documents.
But the U.S. does not follow its own laws [like sanctuary states] who let killers
back onto the streets to re-offend, and do not uphold the rule of law.

Do you really want to just let someone who say killed a family member, go free?
There can be no freedoms, without laws!
As somebody already told you, if you want to live according to the OT law, then the capital punishment was not only for murder, but also for adultery, for not being virgin in the wedding night, for homosexuals, for witches, for children attacking their parents etc.

You would need to kill 90% of the USA. Be glad that the USA gov is tolerant.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
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again the issue was of capital punishment[the death penalty] for murders,
reaffirmed in the new testament for those who do this evil. Romans 13:1-4

Did Jesus say we can break the laws of the land?
Do you know Jesus even favored the death penalty for murder?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
again the issue was of capital punishment[the death penalty] for murders,
reaffirmed in the new testament for those who do this evil. Romans 13:1-4

Did Jesus say we can break the laws of the land?
Do you know Jesus even favored the death penalty for murder?
Romans 13:1-4 is not restricted to murders, "wrongdoing" is also adultery, witchcraft, not being a virgin etc.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Romans 13:1-4 is not restricted to murders, "wrongdoing" is also adultery, witchcraft, not being a virgin etc.
Does Romans 13 say to kill an adulter? No. But what does
"deliver him into the hand of the AVENGER OF BLOOD" mean?
But only someone who killed a person, and there is witnesses at a trial.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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Does Romans 13 say to kill an adulter? No. But what does
"deliver him into the hand of the AVENGER OF BLOOD" mean?
But only someone who killed a person, and there is witnesses at a trial.
I am not sure what text you are reading. Here is R 13:1-4:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.


Where do you see anything about blood?
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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I am not sure what text you are reading. Here is R 13:1-4:

Where do you see anything about blood?
I"m Sorry it was "the AVENGER OF BLOOD" , in the old testament.

Genesis 9:6 and Leviticus 24:17 also give full authority to those sitting in judgment to execute a
murderer. Deuteronomy 19:11-13 commands unsparing punishment for such a killer: “…deliver him
into the hand of the AVENGER OF BLOOD, that he may die. Thine eye SHALL NOT PITY HIM,
but thou shalt PUT AWAY THE GUILT of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.”

The new testament has, for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister,
an AVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH on him who practices evil”

What does "not bear the sword in vain" mean ?
It is still talking about murders of men, and there punishment.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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I"m Sorry it was "the AVENGER OF BLOOD" , in the old testament.

Genesis 9:6 and Leviticus 24:17 also give full authority to those sitting in judgment to execute a
murderer. Deuteronomy 19:11-13 commands unsparing punishment for such a killer: “…deliver him
into the hand of the AVENGER OF BLOOD, that he may die. Thine eye SHALL NOT PITY HIM,
but thou shalt PUT AWAY THE GUILT of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.”

The new testament has, for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister,
an AVENGER TO EXECUTE WRATH on him who practices evil”

What does "not bear the sword in vain" mean ?
It is still talking about murders of men, and there punishment.
So, basically, because R 13 and Lev 24 use the same word - "wrath", you imply that R 13 is about murders only?

Thats quite weak, is it not?