The book of Job, my favorite book.

[blueluna5]

From the first verse we are told that Job lives in the land of Uz, but not who he is. Yet, when you compare scripture with scripture you see many clues. Lamentations 4:21 tells us the land of Uz is where Edom dwells. Job's name means hated.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The parallels between Jacob and Job are many. In Deuteronomy 32:10 we are told Jacob is the apple of God's eye. In Job 1:8 God tells Satan that Job is special. In Deuteronomy 32:15 Jacob is called Jeshurun, being interpreted means the upright one. This is what Job is called in Job 1:1. Jacob falls from grace in Deuteronomy 32:15 because of sin.

In Deut. 32:42 God says he will inflict Israel with arrows. Job says God's arrows are within him Job 6:4

For the first eighteen verses of Lamentations chapter 3 there is a parallel verse in the book of Job. The cup of woe is being passed from Jacob to Job.

I would be happy to discuss the book of Job.

Terry

Job never cursed God and spoke the truth about him. However.... he was wrong on some things. Like saying it would be better for him to have never been born. That's when God questioned him "where were you the
day that I measured Sunk the banks and stretched the line over all the earth and carved out its corner stone?
Where were you the day that I spoke and
Told the sun to split the night open
Calmed the morning dawn with its light to show." Etc

Questioning why God even created you is actually a sin bc you're questioning God. Once he accepted he was wrong to question God everything he lost was restored.

 

[tttallison]

Job never cursed God and spoke the truth about him. However.... he was wrong on some things. Like saying it would be better for him to have never been born. That's when God questioned him "where were you the
day that I measured Sunk the banks and stretched the line over all the earth and carved out its corner stone?
Where were you the day that I spoke and
Told the sun to split the night open
Calmed the morning dawn with its light to show." Etc

Questioning why God even created you is actually a sin bc you're questioning God. Once he accepted he was wrong to question God everything he lost was restored.

In the translation from Hebrew to English some understanding has been lost. Satan did not say Job would curse God. Satan said Job would not bless God. In Job 1:11 Satan said Job will "barak" "lo" you. "barak" always means to bless and "lo" means not. It reads "bless not" you. After the first test Job blessed God, and after the second test Job did not bless God. Job failed the second test.

 

[christophernyc]

There is no discrepancy.

Job 32:3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

Elihu’s wrath was kindled, because the three friends had not found the answer. The answer was that Job had to repent and put on God’s righteousness, in place of Job’s righteousness.

Job 42:7 God said, “My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.”

The scene is now different from when Elihu spoke, for Job has repented, and put on God’s righteousness, but the three friends had not. The right thing the three friends were to say to God was that they too had repented and put on God’s righteousness.

Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

We have discussed this point already, namely God declaring Job has spoken rightly of Him (God). We can agree to disagree on this one because, as I have stated, the comparison being made are the words of the three friends and the words of Job in chapters 4 - 31. I see how you would want to bend what God is saying to apply to Job's words in 42, but I don't see the logic. The contrast God is making regards the heated speeches between Job and the three friends.

Reading Romans 10:1-3 makes me think of Elihu. He is a guy who says "right" things, but seems utterly bereft of any relationship with God, aka *knowledge* (which is like the word "yada" in Hebrew, a kind of knowledge like a man *knows* a woman). Job however spoke of things that were beyond him - and yet there were profoundly accurate. For example, "For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth."

 

[christophernyc]

It states Elihu was angry with Job, and with the three friends. That equates to two times. Consider that God was angry with Job eight times, according to Job. Was Job receptive to God’s anger? You would think not, since Job said, God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. If Elihu was standing in the place of God, as he said he was, then Elihu would have a right to be angry.

Elihu is angry with Job and his friends (two separate parties), but the fact that he is angry is written four times in the text. Hebrew repeats things twice to create emphasis, so reiterating it four times is a way to emphasize just how angry Elihu is. Elihu even expresses it himself when he says he is like a wineskin ready to burst.

Still, my question about how you (or anyone) might feel being counseled by someone with anger. Would you (or anyone outside of this story) in general be open to a furious mediator?

Also, where does it say that God is angry with Job? Which verse are you referring to?

 

[Blade]

In the translation from Hebrew to English some understanding has been lost. Satan did not say Job would curse God. Satan said Job would not bless God. In Job 1:11 Satan said Job will "barak" "lo" you. "barak" always means to bless and "lo" means not. It reads "bless not" you. After the first test Job blessed God, and after the second test Job did not bless God. Job failed the second test.

Be great if there was just one translation but some do translate it as "he will blaspheme".. thats just one there are more None the less Job did say something more then once that he should not have. In case anyone wonders we can head on down to the corner store steal something and since God didn't stop us must mean He allowed it. haha NOT. Our "words" can cause the enemy to act to do things in our lifes. What so many leave out do not focus on is Job got back double what he had. God to David.. I gave you this and that and put those women under your care.. and if all of that was not enough .. all you had to do is ask. That IS our GOD. The end of that one verse.. and believe He is a rewarder of them that seek Him.

 

[tttallison]

We have discussed this point already, namely God declaring Job has spoken rightly of Him (God). We can agree to disagree on this one because, as I have stated, the comparison being made are the words of the three friends and the words of Job in chapters 4 - 31. I see how you would want to bend what God is saying to apply to Job's words in 42, but I don't see the logic. The contrast God is making regards the heated speeches between Job and the three friends.

God qualifies his statement in Job 42:7 with the words "of me", meaning God. You have a legitimate argument, whether God was talking about what they said, or didn't say. But who the speech, or lack of speech, was directed at you don't.

You need to identify what the three friends said about God, that was wrong.

 

[tttallison]

Also, where does it say that God is angry with Job? Which verse are you referring to?

Job 9:13, Job 14:13, Job 16:9, Job 19:11,

 

[Nehemiah6]

Job 9:13, Job 14:13, Job 16:9, Job 19:11,

You sure know how to misunderstand Scripture. What was said in Job 9:13 and to whom did it apply? If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
These words were spoken by Job, who ASSUMED that his calamities were due to God being angry with him. But that was a total misunderstanding. Had Job know what had happened to bring on his calamities, he would have seen that God wad out to prove to Satan (and the world) that Job was RIGHTEOUS. I will not discuss the other verses.

 

[tttallison]

You sure know how to misunderstand Scripture. What was said in Job 9:13 and to whom did it apply? If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
These words were spoken by Job, who ASSUMED that his calamities were due to God being angry with him. But that was a total misunderstanding. Had Job know what had happened to bring on his calamities, he would have seen that God wad out to prove to Satan (and the world) that Job was RIGHTEOUS. I will not discuss the other verses.

Rejecting what contradicts your beliefs
In an ideal world, rational people who encounter new evidence that contradicts their beliefs would evaluate the facts and change their views accordingly. But that’s generally not how things go in the real world.

Partly to blame is a cognitive bias that can kick in when people encounter evidence that runs counter to their beliefs. Instead of reevaluating what they’ve believed up until now, people tend to reject the incompatible evidence. Psychologists call this phenomenon belief perseverance. Everyone can fall prey to this ingrained way of thinking.

Being presented with facts – whether via the news, social media or one-on-one conversations – that suggest their current beliefs are wrong causes people to feel threatened. This reaction is particularly strong when the beliefs in question are aligned with your political and personal identities. It can feel like an attack on you if one of your strongly held beliefs is challenged.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

God asked Job if Job was going to take Satan for a servant forever.

Truth is the most sought after, but the least appreciated.

 

[christophernyc]

There is no discrepancy.

Job 38:1-2 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

God has charged Job with striving and reproving God.

Job 34:17 Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

In Job 41:4 God is asking Job if he is going to take Satan for a servant forever.

God had poured his wrath out upon Job, and Job said God was not just. Job asked God for a mediator, and God gave him Elihu. Elihu was God’s prosecuting attorney. Prosecuting attorneys make accusations according to the evidence.

God is asking Job a question. I know I have asked this before, but it seems it needs to be asked again. What is Job's answer to God?

There is no discrepancy.

Job 38:1-2 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

God has charged Job with striving and reproving God.

Job 34:17 Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

In Job 41:4 God is asking Job if he is going to take Satan for a servant forever.

God had poured his wrath out upon Job, and Job said God was not just. Job asked God for a mediator, and God gave him Elihu. Elihu was God’s prosecuting attorney. Prosecuting attorneys make accusations according to the evidence.

The question posed regards *how* God is communicating with Job and *how* Elihu is communicating with Job. Again, most of Elihu's words are full of judgment and accusations delivered in statements. Most of God's words to Job are framed in the form of questions. The question posed was to explain the discrepancy between Elihu making statements and God asking questions. Those are two different ways of communicating. Making a statement with finality is different than asking a question, hence a discrepancy.

So to restate the question again, can you explain this discrepancy in how God and how Elihu communicate with Job?

 

[christophernyc]

Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

In Job 9:17 Job calls God unjust.

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

God does not destroy the perfect.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job is calling God unrighteous. If God laughs at the trial of the innocent God is unjust.

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job is charging God with being unjust when he says God blinds the judges.

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

If God shines upon the counsel of the wicked God is not just.

Job 16:17 Not for any injustice in mine hands: also my prayer is pure.

Job 19:7 Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Job has clothed himself in his own righteousness, and we know our righteousness is as filthy rags. He was wrong, his heart did condemn him in the end.

This is very helpful. Thank you. Referring to 9:17, was job not broken by a tempest? Were his wounds not multiplied without cause? These things are true. These things did happen to Job, and much more besides. This is a perfect example of why God says that Job has spoken rightly of Him (God).

You wrote that God does not destroy the perfect. This sounds like something Job's three friends would say. That is their logic. But if we read chapters 1 & 2, we understand clearly that God allowed Job to suffer this ordeal undeservingly. Nothing Job did warranted these calamities, as God Himself explicitly states.

Additionally, did God allow His perfect Son Jesus to suffer and die and effectively be destroyed? (Yes, God raised Him from the dead, but God did allow Him first to be destroyed before raising Him back to life.) So if you cannot accept that Job was innocent and yet God let him suffer anyway, how are you able to accept the fact that Jesus was innocent and God allowed Him to suffer? If you do not believe God would destroy the perfect, is your position that Jesus Christ was not perfect then, too?

 

[christophernyc]

Elihu said, Job 33:6 "I am according to your wish in God's place." Job 36:2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf. Job 36:4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.

Elihu words are either true, or they are all false. There is no middle ground. You are saying God gave six chapters of the word of God to a liar. You need to explain why God allowed this to happen.

It's kind of amazing how someone is able to believe Elihu because Elihu (alone) claims he should be believed. And yet, when Job says he is speaking true, these same lovers of Elihu don't believe Job - even though God Himself affirms Job! Truly astounding.

 

[christophernyc]

In the translation from Hebrew to English some understanding has been lost. Satan did not say Job would curse God. Satan said Job would not bless God. In Job 1:11 Satan said Job will "barak" "lo" you. "barak" always means to bless and "lo" means not. It reads "bless not" you. After the first test Job blessed God, and after the second test Job did not bless God. Job failed the second test.

The word in Hebrew that satan uses is yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā, which only appears 2 times in the Bible. So it is very difficult to cross reference. Yes, "barak" can mean bless, but it can also mean curse, according to Strongs. Either way, the point of what satan is saying is that Job will abandon his relationship with God. Satan believes Job's faith is only due to Job be rewarded by God, and of course, satan was wrong. Job does not abandon his faith in God. That's one of the main points of the entire story.

Also, did you notice what it says in 2:9? It says plainly, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

 

[christophernyc]

If you were able to accept that Elihu is God's prosecuting attorney, you wouldn't be asking.

I have considered Elihu to be right and good, and I have also considered other alternatives. My approach was to try and understand him and his role in this story regardless of pre-conceived notions either way. I just wanted to understand him, and what I believe was revealed was shocking.

Have you ever considered any other alternative about Elihu other than your current position? Or have you only ever been locked into this one opinion?

 

[christophernyc]

I have given you a number of the verses. If I was to go back it would start in chapter three.

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Yes, that's true you have provided verses to your point to this before. I guess we keep bumping into the points where we disagree.

Regarding Elihu's statement about Job adding rebellion to his sin, to me that reads as Elihu taking the same position as Job's friends. It seems Elihu is also claiming that the reason Job is suffering in the first place is because of some sin. Again, as we can read, this is not the case.

 

[christophernyc]

God qualifies his statement in Job 42:7 with the words "of me", meaning God. You have a legitimate argument, whether God was talking about what they said, or didn't say. But who the speech, or lack of speech, was directed at you don't.

You need to identify what the three friends said about God, that was wrong.

Thank you. Good question. The words of the three friends are all over the place. I would not say there is no truth in them whatsoever (as you have pointed out Paul quoting in the NT). What I would say, however, is that they were applying "right" principles (at times) to the wrong situation. Their logic is: if you're suffering, Job, it's because you've done something wrong. Confess, repent, and be restored. But that is not what was happening, as we read from the beginning of the story.

This is not the best analogy, but it's like someone trying to fix the engine in their car and someone approaches them reading instructions from a cookbook. Is the cookbook "correct" in how to make a certain dish? Yeah, but the person's problem is with fixing their car's engine. It's "right" advice being misapplied.

Additionally, it seems there is no character in this story (aside from God and satan) who believe God would allow someone to suffer such a horrendous ordeal when they have not directly committed any sin to warrant it. This is essentially the point that Elihu rakes Job over the coals about, and ultimately one of the reasons I believe Elihu is wrong, too. Elihu effectively claims God would never allow someone who is innocent to suffer. And yet, God did.

 

[christophernyc]

Job 9:13, Job 14:13, Job 16:9, Job 19:11,

Yes, these verses are Job's words about what he was experiencing. Because he did not know what was happening behind the scenes (as the reader does), he was experiencing his suffering as God being angry with him, as a form of punishment for wrongdoing. How else could he have taken it under the circumstances and not knowing why?

But let me rephrase the question. Where does it say in the story that God is *actually* angry with Job? Again, we know Job is not suffering because God is angry with him. No, in fact, what we read is God appearing quite pleased with Job saying, "There none on earth like him." So even though Job may feel God is angry with him, we know God is not. God being angry with Job is not how the story begins.

So again, where does the author of the story tell us God is actually angry with Job? For that matter, where does God say He is angry with Job either? That is the question being asked. Where is that verse?

 

[tttallison]

God is asking Job a question. I know I have asked this before, but it seems it needs to be asked again. What is Job's answer to God?

Which question are you referring to?

 

[tttallison]

So to restate the question again, can you explain this discrepancy in how God and how Elihu communicate with Job?

To start with, not everything God said was a question. "He that reproveth God" is not a question.

Job had told God he didn't trust God to be a fair judge. Job went on to describe what kind of Judge he wanted. Therefore, God did not sit as Job's judge. God sent Elihu as judge at the request of Job. Elihu's speech was that of a judge. That is the difference

 

[christophernyc]

Which question are you referring to?

In 40:2. God is basically asking Job if Job is going to follow through with his lawsuit against Him and press charges for wrongdoing. Going with a courtroom analogy, Job's answer is effectively "no". Job drops his case and withdraws his complaint.