Subtle deception

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evyaniy

Guest
#61
#61
The Trinitarians as they are called are not the ones who have been starting the disagreements. They do respond to the challenges to defend the Divinity and Eternalness of the Son and recognize the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as revealed in Scripture, but the Trinitarians for the most part are not the ones bringing the debates. They are comfortable with their interpretation and understanding and history of the doctrine.

For whatever reason, it has been those who want to challenge the Trinitarians beliefs who have been trying to start debates as we have witnessed now for a few months. Some of that has been outright attacks on the Trinitarian beliefs and others have been more respectful and scholarly. Lately it has been one challenger after another like something is going on.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#62
Aug 27, 2023
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#62
evyaniy said:
We is believers in the Son and that the Father raised Him to life again after He offered His life as a Sacrifice for sins to save us.

You are well versed. Read many of your posts and being able to debate with the best. It is not about debating though like there is something to prove or to upset other people's faith. If you have things that are helpful to others and a clearer understanding of Scripture then please share it.

There has been a steady stream of posters that have been calling the Divinity of the Son into question. What does that accomplish besides hurting other people and their faith? Why is it so important to these individuals to question the Eternalness and Divinity of the Son? It makes no sense whatsoever. They are free to have those beliefs but they do not have to push them on others like it is their mission with some kind of benevolent purpose.
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I totally agree…

You are well versed. Read many of your posts and being able to debate with the best.
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Not really…. You know I think Jesus asked over 300 questions within the gospel.
Why? Surely Christ needed to ask no man questions, Asking proper questions makes the person answering evaluate there own position.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#63
Feb 24, 2009
3,258
1,150
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New Zealand
#63
Truthnightmare said:
When you say one with the father.
How do you define one?
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I have the idea of when we get to heaven, we won't see 3 persons.. but the one being God. Not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit seperate.

But I don't really want to get into the Trinity in this thread.

It has been thrashed about already.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#64
Aug 27, 2023
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#64
wattie said:
The same essence. The one being ..God .. in the three persons. Although God isn't just an essence.
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God.. Innthree
wattie said:
I have the idea of when we get to heaven, we won't see 3 persons.. but the one being God. Not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit seperate.

But I don't really want to get into the Trinity in this thread.

It has been thrashed about already.
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Yea, that’s how I look at it… I haven’t been on here long enough to know what’s been thrashed out already.
 
achduke7

achduke7

Active member
#65
Oct 3, 2023
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#65
Who am I?

The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth.

When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with water.

When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

When He assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters would not transgress His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth,

Then I was beside Him, as a master craftsman; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him,

rejoicing in His inhabited world, and my delight was with the sons of men.

"Now therefore, listen to me, my children, for blessed are those who keep my ways.

Hear instruction and be wise, and do not disdain it.

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

For whoever finds me finds life, and obtains favor from the LORD;

but he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; all those who hate me love death."
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#66
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
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#66
wattie said:
I have the idea of when we get to heaven, we won't see 3 persons.. but the one being God. Not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit seperate.
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You may be surprised. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (Rev 21:22) Do you see two persons mentioned?
 
achduke7

achduke7

Active member
#67
Oct 3, 2023
102
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#67
Nehemiah6 said:
You may be surprised. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (Rev 21:22) Do you see two persons mentioned?
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Are they in the same body? See one, See all?

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#68
Feb 24, 2009
3,258
1,150
113
New Zealand
#68
Nehemiah6 said:
You may be surprised. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (Rev 21:22) Do you see two persons mentioned?
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True true...yeah I'm just surmising. Could still be just seeing the one being though.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#71
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
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#71
achduke7 said:
Rev 4 and 5 are a vision unless you really think Christ is a lamb in physical appearance?
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Another silly response. So read this over again: And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Now is that speaking about Christ? And is it speaking about the eternal state? So for God the Father, Christ -- the sacrificial Lamb -- has great significance. He is also called "Christ our Passover", another allusion to the Lamb who was led to the slaughter but did not open His mouth. It is very clear that in eternity in the future there will be two persons of the Godhead seen in the New Jerusalem. Naturally, the Holy Spirit is not absent but just not visible.
 
achduke7

achduke7

Active member
#72
Oct 3, 2023
102
30
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#72
Nehemiah6 said:
Another silly response. So read this over again: And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Now is that speaking about Christ? And is it speaking about the eternal state? So for God the Father, Christ -- the sacrificial Lamb -- has great significance. He is also called "Christ our Passover", another allusion to the Lamb who was led to the slaughter but did not open His mouth. It is very clear that in eternity in the future there will be two persons of the Godhead seen in the New Jerusalem. Naturally, the Holy Spirit is not absent but just not visible.
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I think they will all be there also. But I also think the father dwells inside of the body(temple) of Christ. When you see Christ you see all of them.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
 
Truthnightmare

Truthnightmare

Banned
#73
Aug 27, 2023
823
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#73
achduke7 said:
I think they will all be there also. But I also think the father dwells inside of the body(temple) of Christ. When you see Christ you see all of them.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
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I think they will all be there
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I often consider this… I’m just not sure.
 
selahsays

selahsays

Well-known member
#74
May 31, 2023
2,796
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#74
wattie said:
I have the idea of when we get to heaven, we won't see 3 persons.. but the one being God. Not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit seperate.

But I don't really want to get into the Trinity in this thread.

It has been thrashed about already.
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. . . . .
Yes. Considering that our great God = the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, I believe that in heaven, we will see exactly what John saw:

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

- Revelation 4:2-3 (KJV)
IMG_5750.gif
 
achduke7

achduke7

Active member
#75
Oct 3, 2023
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#75
Truthnightmare said:
I often consider this… I’m just not sure.
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Some other related verses.

1 cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Luke 22:69 But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”

Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Isaiah 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.



If the Father is the mind and Christ sits at his Right, What is to the right of your mind/head? Your Arm.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#76
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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#76
achduke7 said:
Rev 4 and 5 are a vision unless you really think Christ is a lamb in physical appearance?
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:) The following passage uses the word "Lamb" without it having been a "vision" (Jesus was actually / literally present there):

John 1:29,36 -

29On the next day, he sees Jesus coming to him and says, “Behold the Lamb of God, the One taking away the sin of the world. 30This is He concerning whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who has precedence over me, because He was before me.’ 31And I did not know Him. But so that He might be revealed to Israel, because of this, I came baptizing with water.”

32And John bore witness saying, “I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon Him. 33And I did not know Him; but the One having sent me to baptize with water, He said to me, ‘Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending and abiding on Him, He is the One baptizing with the Holy Spirit.’ 34And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Sone of God.”

35On the next day John again was standing, and two of his disciples. 36And having looked at Jesus walking, he says, “Behold the Lamb of God!” 37And the two disciples heard him speaking, and followed Jesus.
 
achduke7

achduke7

Active member
#79
Oct 3, 2023
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#79
TheDivineWatermark said:
:) The following passage uses the word "Lamb" without it having been a "vision" (Jesus was actually / literally present there):

John 1:29,36 -

29On the next day, he sees Jesus coming to him and says, “Behold the Lamb of God, the One taking away the sin of the world. 30This is He concerning whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who has precedence over me, because He was before me.’ 31And I did not know Him. But so that He might be revealed to Israel, because of this, I came baptizing with water.”

32And John bore witness saying, “I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon Him. 33And I did not know Him; but the One having sent me to baptize with water, He said to me, ‘Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending and abiding on Him, He is the One baptizing with the Holy Spirit.’ 34And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Sone of God.”

35On the next day John again was standing, and two of his disciples. 36And having looked at Jesus walking, he says, “Behold the Lamb of God!” 37And the two disciples heard him speaking, and followed Jesus.
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I understand that Christ represents the Lamb of God but seeing a Lamb in a vision while you are in the spirit and representing the Lamb are different. I do not believe we will actually see a Lamb on God's throne when he comes down to earth.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#80
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#80
achduke7 said:
I do not believe we will actually see a Lamb on God's throne when he comes down to earth.
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No one else does either. You have simply made a non-issue an issue.
 
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