Sons of God and daughters of Men
- Thread starter Vinodkumar
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Job 38 is one reference very poetic in nature. Hard to define with absolute certainty. What about the reference that says God does not refer to angels as sons?
Heb. 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Especially referring to fallen angels as sons: Doing what God would not allow. You must think God is some kind of wimp. Angels are spirits. Fallen or not they only do what God allows.
Heb. 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Especially referring to fallen angels as sons: Doing what God would not allow. You must think God is some kind of wimp. Angels are spirits. Fallen or not they only do what God allows.
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Amen. I would offer as in most cases the father of lies, the counterfeiter would try and claim of his own to be the light (lucifer) son of the morning .
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! isaiahs 14:12
The idea of a “bright morning star” is not that one light outshines all the others, But rather one is the light as the glory of the Lord. The other darkness that opposes the light as truth opposes lies.
JESUS is the BRIGHT as the source of true light (like the Sun) and morning star (reflected light represented by the moon ). He and the father are one source of glory .
Lucifer the morning star that lost his reflected light source as the presence of God with other angels. When the veil was rent Satan fell as the graves were opened signaling the first resurrection. In the new order the time keepers. Sun and the moon would have served its purpose. Darkness will never rise again
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.Revelation 21:22-26
Revelation 22:16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright “and” morning star.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! isaiahs 14:12
The idea of a “bright morning star” is not that one light outshines all the others, But rather one is the light as the glory of the Lord. The other darkness that opposes the light as truth opposes lies.
JESUS is the BRIGHT as the source of true light (like the Sun) and morning star (reflected light represented by the moon ). He and the father are one source of glory .
Lucifer the morning star that lost his reflected light source as the presence of God with other angels. When the veil was rent Satan fell as the graves were opened signaling the first resurrection. In the new order the time keepers. Sun and the moon would have served its purpose. Darkness will never rise again
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.Revelation 21:22-26
Revelation 22:16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright “and” morning star.
J
its hard to believe people take scriptures like Job 38 and say its in conclusive? sons of the Most High in existance before man proves they were non mankind heavenly beings of some sort, the fact whether they are "messengers" or not is completely irreverent. what it does prove conclusively is sons of the Most High are heavenly beings and not beings of this world.
and there are no passages that say sons of the Most High are men. the NT references are talking about spirit, or a future transformation.
and there are no passages that say sons of the Most High are men. the NT references are talking about spirit, or a future transformation.
J
poetic means it is true or false?
Especially referring to fallen angels as sons: Doing what God would not allow. You must think God is some kind of wimp. Angels are spirits. Fallen or not they only do what God allows.
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
these guys got punished for doing what wasnt allowed?
Job 38 is one reference very poetic in nature. Hard to define with absolute certainty. What about the reference that says God does not refer to angels as sons?
Heb. 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Especially referring to fallen angels as sons: Doing what God would not allow. You must think God is some kind of wimp. Angels are spirits. Fallen or not they only do what God allows.
Heb. 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
Especially referring to fallen angels as sons: Doing what God would not allow. You must think God is some kind of wimp. Angels are spirits. Fallen or not they only do what God allows.
That simply is not true. God called Israel his son in Hosea 1:10. "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, 'Israel is My son, My firstborn.' So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.'" The term 'sons of God always refers to the faithful, regardless of which covenant they were under.
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Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
It appears to me, these verses refer to angels as does Job 38:7 mentioned eariler in this thread
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
It appears to me, these verses refer to angels as does Job 38:7 mentioned eariler in this thread
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Well, for one thing, this is not a vision of Job's nor is he recounting this story. Also, the book of Job was written more than likely by Moses, not Job. So, are you assuming that because Satan and God are having this conversation that this "presentation" of the sons of God is something that is taking place in heaven? If so, what could this possibly have to do with Job and why would one automatically assume that Satan must be in heaven for this conversation between Satan and God to be taking place?
Leviticus defines the terminology for us about one's presentation to Jehovah. The presentation of one's self before God is precisely what those in the Levitical system did who brought their sacrifices to the altar. God told them that when they brought their gifts to the altar, he would meet them there and bless them and forgive their sins. This is indicative of an act of worship. There is no reason that this is not simply referring to the worshipers of God - sons of God, who lived in the time of Job. It seems rather obvious that Job is one of these and God points him out to Satan and asks have you considered my servant Job? Would this not seem to better fit the context?
If this is a worship scenario the presence of God is among his worshipers (See the examples of the offering of sacrifices in Exodus 25:22 "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.") This then is an earth-bound experience. Clearly, Satan is also present. This does not necessitate that this is taking place in heaven. This is unwarranted conjecture.
Leviticus defines the terminology for us about one's presentation to Jehovah. The presentation of one's self before God is precisely what those in the Levitical system did who brought their sacrifices to the altar. God told them that when they brought their gifts to the altar, he would meet them there and bless them and forgive their sins. This is indicative of an act of worship. There is no reason that this is not simply referring to the worshipers of God - sons of God, who lived in the time of Job. It seems rather obvious that Job is one of these and God points him out to Satan and asks have you considered my servant Job? Would this not seem to better fit the context?
If this is a worship scenario the presence of God is among his worshipers (See the examples of the offering of sacrifices in Exodus 25:22 "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.") This then is an earth-bound experience. Clearly, Satan is also present. This does not necessitate that this is taking place in heaven. This is unwarranted conjecture.
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Just my opinion:
T he NT, sons of God, verses are referring to the spiritual realm. That being the case, it would support the angel interpretation.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
T he NT, sons of God, verses are referring to the spiritual realm. That being the case, it would support the angel interpretation.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?