Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
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TLC,
I'll go out on a limb saying some things that perhaps NO-one here likes or agrees with. Gotta say it in a few parts so I numbered your statements (if I'm answering one directly).
1. It is true that God requires us to worship him in Spirit, not just in truth. Speaking in tongues is defined as spiritual prayer in 1 Corinthians 14: 2& 14. "If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays". That's a pretty clear statement. People assume, and churches teach, that praying sincerely = spiritual prayer.....but does the BIBLE say that anywhere? (Not that I've found.)
2. It could also be said "Show me anywhere else in the bible where it records a play-by-play of what it's actually like when someone first receives the Holy Ghost". The fact that God chose to have all of those recordings be in one book means that we have the option of actually USING and TRUSTING those examples...or... disregarding, downplaying, ignoring them, replacing them with examples that we think are 'better' because they fit our church's teachings, or simply saying that only one example (or maybe 2 or 3) are more important than the others (again because our church or personal doctrine doesn't match the rest)
3. Apparently in 1906 some people who were seeking God experienced a significant outpouring of the Holy Ghost with tongues and other manifestations/gifts. It may have been significantly brought to the attention of the people of the United States at that time, but it's certainly not the beginning of it, nor the end. Do a little research. There are books written by Russians and others describing similar (though less publicized) outpourings independent of the Sousa street time and place. BTW, since people seem to be willing to acknowledge that the Souza street revival was a real thing, why don't they ask "What exactly did they receive?" "How did it get there and start happening?" "SOMETHING caused them to start speaking like that...Was it of God, or was it the devil? <---And seek God until he actually answers...not just jump to conclusions based on their own understanding and proclaim that they are "pretty sure" it's one way or the other.
4. Yes, we do realize this...although I'd change the wording to "No Holy Ghost = not BEING in the kingdom of heaven". (as Romans 8:9 supports, regardless what they particularly believe and whether or not they've been baptized, or are nice to people). But the way is still available to them, if they will take it. They're not locked out just because they haven't received it yet. That's why we're encouraging everyone to get what God is offering to them.
5. You yourself are able to see that there's more to salvation than just believing and being declared "saved" (by yourself or by your new church buddies, who probably acknowledge they don't know how to tell if someone actually has the Holy Ghost or not). But I don't think you see how rare that particular understanding is. You actually have the Holy Ghost...if you've ever spoken anything in 'unknown' tongues by the Holy Ghost, even if it's just a few syllables. The Holy Ghost promises to teach things directly to you...and it seems to me that God has already begun doing that in you. (No, I'm not saying that to butter you up)
6. There's more to say, but I'll let that be in future posts.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I'll go out on a limb saying some things that perhaps NO-one here likes or agrees with. Gotta say it in a few parts so I numbered your statements (if I'm answering one directly).
1. It is true that God requires us to worship him in Spirit, not just in truth. Speaking in tongues is defined as spiritual prayer in 1 Corinthians 14: 2& 14. "If I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays". That's a pretty clear statement. People assume, and churches teach, that praying sincerely = spiritual prayer.....but does the BIBLE say that anywhere? (Not that I've found.)
2. It could also be said "Show me anywhere else in the bible where it records a play-by-play of what it's actually like when someone first receives the Holy Ghost". The fact that God chose to have all of those recordings be in one book means that we have the option of actually USING and TRUSTING those examples...or... disregarding, downplaying, ignoring them, replacing them with examples that we think are 'better' because they fit our church's teachings, or simply saying that only one example (or maybe 2 or 3) are more important than the others (again because our church or personal doctrine doesn't match the rest)
3. Apparently in 1906 some people who were seeking God experienced a significant outpouring of the Holy Ghost with tongues and other manifestations/gifts. It may have been significantly brought to the attention of the people of the United States at that time, but it's certainly not the beginning of it, nor the end. Do a little research. There are books written by Russians and others describing similar (though less publicized) outpourings independent of the Sousa street time and place. BTW, since people seem to be willing to acknowledge that the Souza street revival was a real thing, why don't they ask "What exactly did they receive?" "How did it get there and start happening?" "SOMETHING caused them to start speaking like that...Was it of God, or was it the devil? <---And seek God until he actually answers...not just jump to conclusions based on their own understanding and proclaim that they are "pretty sure" it's one way or the other.
4. Yes, we do realize this...although I'd change the wording to "No Holy Ghost = not BEING in the kingdom of heaven". (as Romans 8:9 supports, regardless what they particularly believe and whether or not they've been baptized, or are nice to people). But the way is still available to them, if they will take it. They're not locked out just because they haven't received it yet. That's why we're encouraging everyone to get what God is offering to them.
5. You yourself are able to see that there's more to salvation than just believing and being declared "saved" (by yourself or by your new church buddies, who probably acknowledge they don't know how to tell if someone actually has the Holy Ghost or not). But I don't think you see how rare that particular understanding is. You actually have the Holy Ghost...if you've ever spoken anything in 'unknown' tongues by the Holy Ghost, even if it's just a few syllables. The Holy Ghost promises to teach things directly to you...and it seems to me that God has already begun doing that in you. (No, I'm not saying that to butter you up)
6. There's more to say, but I'll let that be in future posts.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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If I could add, worship him as the Spirit of Truth, that works in us. Not just truth. But His. The tongue is not unknown to the speaker. The word "unknown" was added. That added confusion.
Praying sincerely = praying in the new spirit that was given at salvation, now having the ability to seek that the will of God be done. God will interpret his own prophecy, as hearers of the Faith of Him not seen. That faith alone comes by hearing as he gives us ears to hear what the unseen spirt is saying to the churches.
Tongues = prophecy.... God thoughts revealed to mankind.
Praying sincerely = praying in the new spirit that was given at salvation, now having the ability to seek that the will of God be done. God will interpret his own prophecy, as hearers of the Faith of Him not seen. That faith alone comes by hearing as he gives us ears to hear what the unseen spirt is saying to the churches.
Tongues = prophecy.... God thoughts revealed to mankind.
E
Who did the work through the disciples? Was it the or the Holy Spirit
Your trying to take an OLD COVENANT things (the holy spirit works miracles through people) withthe new covenant fact that the HS is give to ALL who believe (eph 1: 13 - 14
If you do not have th eHS, You have not yet believed, (How can I say this, Because paul said EVERYONE who believes is GIVEN the HS) if you have not believed, your not saved.
This is a fact which is proven by Pauls words in eph 1: 13 - 14.. but not just here, but it is all one needs to prove this case.
Your trying to take an OLD COVENANT things (the holy spirit works miracles through people) withthe new covenant fact that the HS is give to ALL who believe (eph 1: 13 - 14
If you do not have th eHS, You have not yet believed, (How can I say this, Because paul said EVERYONE who believes is GIVEN the HS) if you have not believed, your not saved.
This is a fact which is proven by Pauls words in eph 1: 13 - 14.. but not just here, but it is all one needs to prove this case.
E
It is sad that people can not look at the word and see these things.
I mean wow, he just condemned the whole OT people who never spoke in tongues as unsaved or he is teaching we are saved differently than the OT, either way, showing the gospel is not lining up wiht Gods message of restoration and salvation from genesis on.
I mean wow, he just condemned the whole OT people who never spoke in tongues as unsaved or he is teaching we are saved differently than the OT, either way, showing the gospel is not lining up wiht Gods message of restoration and salvation from genesis on.
This is by far what the Bible says, you did not need to speak in "unknown" tongue to have the Holy Ghost. The bible also tells of a fruit of the Spirit. Again the Bible says, we can know someone because of the fruit.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Why do people seem to interpret the word "AFTER" as if it means "AT EXACTLY THE SAME MOMENT AS"?!
Please pay attention to the fact that it was at Ephesus (Ephesians) that Paul meets disciples (Acts 19:1), whom he asks 'Have you received the Holy Ghost since (at, after, or because of) you believed ?" (19:2), Then he preaches some(19:3-4), then they get baptized(19:5)... (these are sequential, one after the other, non-simultaneous events).....but it seems they haven't yet received the Holy Ghost....which doesn't come until Paul lays hands on them(19:6), at which point they actually receive the Holy Ghost (also verse 6) and of course begin speaking in tongues (verse 6) and prophesying (verse 6).
In the bible, people believe at one point, and often receive the Holy Ghost AFTER...(at some later time). Therefore, the BIBLE doesn't have a problem with this fact even though many popular doctrines do.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Please pay attention to the fact that it was at Ephesus (Ephesians) that Paul meets disciples (Acts 19:1), whom he asks 'Have you received the Holy Ghost since (at, after, or because of) you believed ?" (19:2), Then he preaches some(19:3-4), then they get baptized(19:5)... (these are sequential, one after the other, non-simultaneous events).....but it seems they haven't yet received the Holy Ghost....which doesn't come until Paul lays hands on them(19:6), at which point they actually receive the Holy Ghost (also verse 6) and of course begin speaking in tongues (verse 6) and prophesying (verse 6).
In the bible, people believe at one point, and often receive the Holy Ghost AFTER...(at some later time). Therefore, the BIBLE doesn't have a problem with this fact even though many popular doctrines do.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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E
Why do you continue to ignore Eph 1: 13 - 14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Another example of this is Abraham &Sarah (his wife).
They were given(heard) the promise at one point (Abraham in Genesis 17:16. Sarah in Genesis 18:10)
but both initially laughed at it in disbelief (Abraham in Gen 17:17. Sarah in Gen. 18:11-12),
Sarah even denied doing so (Gen. 18:13-15),
then at some point after/later they began to believe the promise... Sarah Heb. 11:11)
and some point later still (aka "after"), they actually received the son (fulfilment of the promise)
It appears to me that this is an analogy to the promise in the new testament. God promises the Holy Ghost. People hear at different times, believe at different times, and yet the Holy Ghost will actually arrive at the time of GOD'S choosing, not man's (even though we may want it instantly). Meanwhile, the hearer must gain and abide in FAITH, until the promise is actually given...lest they make up some fleshy excuse/replacement ( an Ishmael).
Yes the analogy goes further still, and you can see churches making Ishmaels in several ways, but this is enough for now.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
They were given(heard) the promise at one point (Abraham in Genesis 17:16. Sarah in Genesis 18:10)
but both initially laughed at it in disbelief (Abraham in Gen 17:17. Sarah in Gen. 18:11-12),
Sarah even denied doing so (Gen. 18:13-15),
then at some point after/later they began to believe the promise... Sarah Heb. 11:11)
and some point later still (aka "after"), they actually received the son (fulfilment of the promise)
It appears to me that this is an analogy to the promise in the new testament. God promises the Holy Ghost. People hear at different times, believe at different times, and yet the Holy Ghost will actually arrive at the time of GOD'S choosing, not man's (even though we may want it instantly). Meanwhile, the hearer must gain and abide in FAITH, until the promise is actually given...lest they make up some fleshy excuse/replacement ( an Ishmael).
Yes the analogy goes further still, and you can see churches making Ishmaels in several ways, but this is enough for now.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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I'm not ignoring it, I'm assuming he's talking to people of Ephesus like those he met in Acts 19.
People who not only have believed..., not only have been baptized..., but who also have tarried/believed/endured until they actually received the promise (which included the evidence of speaking in tongues).
People who not only have believed..., not only have been baptized..., but who also have tarried/believed/endured until they actually received the promise (which included the evidence of speaking in tongues).
Eternallygrateful,
I also acknowledge two additional things about Ephesians 13.
1. we're reading/quoting from different translations. (KJV says after you heard and after you believed)
2. It appears the entire phrases implying past tense are translated from single words... which also adds to the difficulty of correctly interpreting the written portions...which is also part of the reason God was nice enough to give us chronological examples that SHOW us what he means. (the examples recorded in Acts)
Eph 1:13 InG1722 whomG3739 yeG5210 alsoG2532 trusted, after that ye heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 of truth,G225 theG3588 gospelG2098 of yourG5216 salvation:G4991 inG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 after that ye believed,G4100 ye were sealedG4972 with that holyG40 SpiritG4151 of promise,G1860
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I also acknowledge two additional things about Ephesians 13.
1. we're reading/quoting from different translations. (KJV says after you heard and after you believed)
2. It appears the entire phrases implying past tense are translated from single words... which also adds to the difficulty of correctly interpreting the written portions...which is also part of the reason God was nice enough to give us chronological examples that SHOW us what he means. (the examples recorded in Acts)
Eph 1:13 InG1722 whomG3739 yeG5210 alsoG2532 trusted, after that ye heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 of truth,G225 theG3588 gospelG2098 of yourG5216 salvation:G4991 inG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 after that ye believed,G4100 ye were sealedG4972 with that holyG40 SpiritG4151 of promise,G1860
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
So like ive asked all those who speak in tounges and claim they have the Holy Spirit (I have strong doubts that some of these people truly have the HS) I ask them to pray to interpret. And none have yet to be able to do so. But Paul here says to pray that he may be able to interpret or else its unfruitful.
Our Spirit prays glorifies and worships God without the need of any unknown tounge or babble. Jesus taught not to pray in these vain repetitions and babblings. He called those who did so "hypocrites". Matt. 6:7
Yes I do have the Holy Spirit and I dont speak in tounges nor do I wish to speak in tounges. I wish to prophesy like Paul recommends us all to do. Speaking in tounges was the sign at pentecost. There was a mighty wind and thousands recieved the out pouring. Cloven tounges with fire apeared on each of them. They prophesied and spoke in tounges in Acts. Modern churches disregard prophesying since it cannot be counterfeited and heavily rely on babblings which anyone can do.
Its a shame to see how people speak in tounges and add laughing and rolling around to be something of God. But when did they break out laughing and rolling around in the dirt in the book of Acts.
Im not saying they didnt speak in tounges at the outpouring at Pentecost, im only saying thats not the only way we recieve the Holy Spirit. And speaking in tounges is not the only evidence. The fruits of the Spirit are evidence. The person knowing the truth.
I had a tounge speaker read a verse from scripture and he butchered it with his interpretation that it was almost comical, but when you have the Holy Spirit its painful and hurts your Spirit. (Like gut wrenching.) The guy claimed he was reading the bible with spiritual eyes. Well its not the Holy Spirit. I stay away from someone like that. So I concluded all his tounge talking was all demonic or just fake.
The point im making is that he claims to be a man of God. If the Holy Spirit doesnt line up then its not the Holy Spirit. And theres only demons or evil spirits as any other spirit the person might have.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
So like ive asked all those who speak in tounges and claim they have the Holy Spirit (I have strong doubts that some of these people truly have the HS) I ask them to pray to interpret. And none have yet to be able to do so. But Paul here says to pray that he may be able to interpret or else its unfruitful.
Our Spirit prays glorifies and worships God without the need of any unknown tounge or babble. Jesus taught not to pray in these vain repetitions and babblings. He called those who did so "hypocrites". Matt. 6:7
Yes I do have the Holy Spirit and I dont speak in tounges nor do I wish to speak in tounges. I wish to prophesy like Paul recommends us all to do. Speaking in tounges was the sign at pentecost. There was a mighty wind and thousands recieved the out pouring. Cloven tounges with fire apeared on each of them. They prophesied and spoke in tounges in Acts. Modern churches disregard prophesying since it cannot be counterfeited and heavily rely on babblings which anyone can do.
Its a shame to see how people speak in tounges and add laughing and rolling around to be something of God. But when did they break out laughing and rolling around in the dirt in the book of Acts.
Im not saying they didnt speak in tounges at the outpouring at Pentecost, im only saying thats not the only way we recieve the Holy Spirit. And speaking in tounges is not the only evidence. The fruits of the Spirit are evidence. The person knowing the truth.
I had a tounge speaker read a verse from scripture and he butchered it with his interpretation that it was almost comical, but when you have the Holy Spirit its painful and hurts your Spirit. (Like gut wrenching.) The guy claimed he was reading the bible with spiritual eyes. Well its not the Holy Spirit. I stay away from someone like that. So I concluded all his tounge talking was all demonic or just fake.
The point im making is that he claims to be a man of God. If the Holy Spirit doesnt line up then its not the Holy Spirit. And theres only demons or evil spirits as any other spirit the person might have.
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Eternallygrateful,
I also acknowledge two additional things about Ephesians 13.
1. we're reading/quoting from different translations. (KJV says after you heard and after you believed)
2. It appears the entire phrases implying past tense are translated from single words... which also adds to the difficulty of correctly interpreting the written portions...which is also part of the reason God was nice enough to give us chronological examples that SHOW us what he means. (the examples recorded in Acts)
Eph 1:13 InG1722 whomG3739 yeG5210 alsoG2532 trusted, after that ye heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 of truth,G225 theG3588 gospelG2098 of yourG5216 salvation:G4991 inG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 after that ye believed,G4100 ye were sealedG4972 with that holyG40 SpiritG4151 of promise,G1860
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I also acknowledge two additional things about Ephesians 13.
1. we're reading/quoting from different translations. (KJV says after you heard and after you believed)
2. It appears the entire phrases implying past tense are translated from single words... which also adds to the difficulty of correctly interpreting the written portions...which is also part of the reason God was nice enough to give us chronological examples that SHOW us what he means. (the examples recorded in Acts)
Eph 1:13 InG1722 whomG3739 yeG5210 alsoG2532 trusted, after that ye heardG191 theG3588 wordG3056 of truth,G225 theG3588 gospelG2098 of yourG5216 salvation:G4991 inG1722 whomG3739 alsoG2532 after that ye believed,G4100 ye were sealedG4972 with that holyG40 SpiritG4151 of promise,G1860
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Just as i said
After we heard the word, and after we have faithm we are sealed
How can one be saved if they have not been sealed, what pledge do they have?