So what does that make me?

[SoulWeaver]

My first thought was Adam a living soul was separated from God and died spiritually but kept on breathing for hundreds of years.

So did he continue to exist as a living breathing soul? Does a soul have a life of its own once created? Why do you say borrowed and not given? if they are not our and not given to us, how is it then that we as merely stewards sold them into slavery to sin and subjected the whole world that was under our rule to that sin and futility as well? I don't think God created us on loan. love requires freedom and we are created in that freedom for that love of God.

Ask any woman about a man who forces his love on them taking away her freedom to choose it. That is not a picture of God.
So freedom in integral to love.

Now we are talking about a life of slavery to sin and an off or exchange, one old life for one new one.
A dying life for an undying one
Payment made to purchase for us the freedom to be able to make that choice.


John B knew he was the embodiment and and end the old Jesus was the beginning of he new. I dont think the application is meant for how you are using it.


Now you are steping into John 17 one of my faves.. is it not no more us but us in him as one.
No more old sinful us but new spiritual pleasing to God awesome us..
The bride of spiritual hotness....


As a payment for sin, yes
As a means of making us acceptable, i believe that is the purpose of our gospel the rebirth of the Spirit man and the transformation of the soul into what he is in nature by that Spirit in us.

You are really making me work here. But i think you are worth the effort

We do receive the soul of Adam, we do not receive the soul of Jesus
in receiving the Spirit of Jesus we are made alive in Spirit, born again.
so that can be the life giving but the fact of having the living holy spirit of God in us
quickening of the soul via the sanctification work of that Spirit for the purposes of our salvation are clear in scripture.
SO one inseparable thing resulting from one acceptable sacrifice.

I
I can not agree,
Jesus is still Jesus the man as in the soul of the man that he became and was. .
A man that learned obedience through the things he suffered.
That was not lost when He went home it was glorified.
I believe the same is to be expected by all believers.
Only what is done for christ will last. AKA the stuff of our souls that comes out of us for Him continues and get glorified and becomes what we will be in heaven.
That is related to position in the house of heaven, who will be at his right and his left who gets a seat by the door.

I really did not claim many things you say here...
I will just give one example how you're taking me wrong, I never stated that "we receive soul of Jesus" in fact I said opposite things. You insist on equating spirit and soul, and that causes contradiction. I said that we receive celestial body not terrestrial. Did the fiery body of Jesus that John witnessed in Revelation look like "a living soul" of an earthly Adam that God breathed into to make him alive? Or the "quickening spirit" and fire Himself, "in Thy likeness"? What I did say is that we get transformed (because Jesus saved our souls or our individual selves). Living soul goes with the earthen, corporeal body, but spiritual body is living spirit (1 Cor 15:45). Just because Jesus lived in an earthen body previously too and also had a living soul, has no bearing on this fact. We are not going to inherit the earthen body of Jesus that has flesh and blood, but His celestial likeness.

 

[Lion222]

I really did not claim many things you say here...
I will just give one example how you're taking me wrong, I never stated that "we receive soul of Jesus" in fact I said opposite things. You insist on equating spirit and soul, and that causes contradiction. I said that we receive celestial body not terrestrial. Did the fiery body of Jesus that John witnessed in Revelation look like "a living soul" of an earthly Adam that God breathed into to make him alive? Or the "quickening spirit" and fire Himself, "in Thy likeness"? What I did say is that we get transformed (because Jesus saved our souls or our individual selves). Living soul goes with the earthen, corporeal body, but spiritual body is living spirit (1 Cor 15:45). Just because Jesus lived in an earthen body previously too and also had a living soul, has no bearing on this fact. We are not going to inherit the earthen body of Jesus that has flesh and blood, but His celestial likeness.

You are not getting me.
I DO NOT equate spirit and soul.
They are totally different just hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
I am only making an argument regarding each thing i quoted from you.
The argument is just about making a perspective clear, I did not mean to imply you held to any thing other then what i quoted.

Living soul goes with the earthen - agree.
but spiritual body is living spirit - agree
also had a living soul, has no bearing on this fact - do not agree

Jesus became something new.
He did not shed that and return to being what he once was.
He is still a man in heaven, a glorified version of a physical man.
He lost nothing of his soul whatever that looks like it is still connected to him new man/god nature and his soul is totally part of that.
You don't just cease to be you and disappear into God.
You are you sanctified glorified you as part of the Family of God.

May your mind body and soul be preserved complete by the sanctification work of Holy Spirit.

 

[SoulWeaver]

You are not getting me.
I DO NOT equate spirit and soul.
They are totally different just hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
I am only making an argument regarding each thing i quoted from you.
The argument is just about making a perspective clear, I did not mean to imply you held to any thing other then what i quoted.

Living soul goes with the earthen - agree.
but spiritual body is living spirit - agree
also had a living soul, has no bearing on this fact - do not agree

Jesus became something new.
He did not shed that and return to being what he once was.
He is still a man in heaven, a glorified version of a physical man.
He lost nothing of his soul whatever that looks like it is still connected to him new man/god nature and his soul is totally part of that.
You don't just cease to be you and disappear into God.
You are you sanctified glorified you as part of the Family of God.

May your mind body and soul be preserved complete by the sanctification work of Holy Spirit.

Well at least the conversation was fruitful in that sense that I see now the main point of disagreement...

"You don't just cease to be you" --- I didn't use to think that either, but over the years I started seriously considering this possibility based on some Scriptures. Per example, the statement that we must decrease (we are not going to increase again later? but instead God gives us His likeness when we awake), and another is what Ecclesiastes says about the dead, their love, their hatred, knowledge, it all gets perished. People think they will still keep their likes and dislikes, little quirks, whatever constitutes their personalities, even engage in discussions in Heaven... I really believe Heaven to be a state of being and that we will pretty much just be, like God.

Losing identity seems to be a bitter pill that most people cannot accept. It's not about me being right or wrong - of course I might be wrong. But the fact that people automatically resist and have strong emotional bias is what makes me consider this even more. I am just opening up about what I think and believe. It's not like either of us can prove these things while on earth, anyway, or that details of how we imagine the afterlife is essential to Christianity - except the basics, that there is an afterlife for us, through Christ, and in Him.

I guess we could agree that we do get integrated into the oneness of God's being? Thank you for praying for me, I gladly accept it, and I pray the same for you.

 

[Lion222]

Well at least the conversation was fruitful in that sense that I see now the main point of disagreement...

"You don't just cease to be you" --- I didn't use to think that either, but over the years I started seriously considering this possibility based on some Scriptures. Per example, the statement that we must decrease (we are not going to increase again later? but instead God gives us His likeness when we awake), and another is what Ecclesiastes says about the dead, their love, their hatred, knowledge, it all gets perished. People think they will still keep their likes and dislikes, little quirks, whatever constitutes their personalities, even engage in discussions in Heaven... I really believe Heaven to be a state of being and that we will pretty much just be, like God.

Losing identity seems to be a bitter pill that most people cannot accept. It's not about me being right or wrong - of course I might be wrong. But the fact that people automatically resist and have strong emotional bias is what makes me consider this even more. I am just opening up about what I think and believe. It's not like either of us can prove these things while on earth, anyway, or that details of how we imagine the afterlife is essential to Christianity - except the basics, that there is an afterlife for us, through Christ, and in Him.

I guess we could agree that we do get integrated into the oneness of God's being? Thank you for praying for me, I gladly accept it, and I pray the same for you.

Dude the example is a marriage.
You do loose yourself if you are doing it right but you also find yourself in that.
It is not a loss of who you are but the AHHHH expression direction reality purpose joy passion collision explosion realization of the true you.

 

[Lafftur]

@Lion222 - You ask great questions that lead us to go in search of Truth! Excellent!

OK valid point

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

So you are saying Jesus in his flesh was God???
Divine flesh???

Jesus referred to Himself as The Son of God and The Son of Man (firstborn of new man - spiritual nature without sin yet, knowing good and evil).

He was born by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb because Jesus Christ is The Seed of the woman that God was referring to in Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Luke 1:35 King James Version (KJV)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

So how is it that he aged?
How is it that he died?

His origins was from God, he existed in God from the beginning.
But when he shed his divine form to become a humble man through birth how was his flesh anything else then a man without the consequences of inherent sin?

The problem with exulting his flesh to some form of divinity is that it disqualifies him to represent us who have no such thing.

How is it that he can represent us who are just plain old flesh and not the special divine flesh?

Jesus aged and died because God was preparing a body to be sacrificed for the sins of the world. It would have to be without spot or blemish - perfect fulfillment of the Law, Prophets and penalty of sin.

In His physical body, Jesus Christ fulfilled ALL of the works of the Law of Moses and ALL that the Prophets had spoken/written about Him as Messiah.

Born of a virgin, circumcised on the 8th day, about His Father's business at the age of 12, water baptized in the Jordan River, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, the dumb speak, the dead are raised to life......Jesus is the Human fulfillment of the Law for us.

Right before the cross, on the Mt. of Transfiguration Jesus meets with Moses and Elijah - He is examined by The Law and The Prophets - He passed - all is fulfilled and recorded in His body - He becomes transfigured because He passed. He has NOW completed the task of preparing a perfect body ready for sacrifice that will be accepted by the Father for us.

Time to go to the cross....one last work to be recorded in His body for us......the penalty of sin which is death, the shedding of His Blood for the forgiveness of our sins.

That is why I ask the question.
How was Jesus God?
In origin, yes
in son-ship, yes
in Spirit, yes
in physical form as in his human flesh, NO.

He had to become like one of us in order to be our Savior.
In his flesh he was man without sin, nothing more or less then what Adam once was.
That is why he is called the second Adam.

Fully Man in his flesh to represent us.
Fully God in Spirit to save us.

His origins was from God, he existed in God from the beginning.
But when he shed his divine form to become a humble man through birth how was his flesh anything else then a man without the consequences of inherent sin?

The problem with exulting his flesh to some form of divinity is that it disqualifies him to represent us who have no such thing.

How is it that he can represent us who are just plain old flesh and not the special divine flesh?

It's important to understand the "works of righteousness" that had to be recorded in His physical body for us - The Lord our Righteousness.

At birth, He was not yet a "perfect sacrifice" but rather, a holy pure and clean lump of clay with a spiritual nature, NOT a sinful nature.

He had to fulfill ALL THE WORKS required by the Law of Moses, ALL THE WORKS that the Prophets had spoken/written about the Messiah, and the work of the penalty of sin for us in His physical Body by shedding His Blood and dying on the cross for us.

His Body is the Gift of Righteousness for us in exchange for our filthy rags of righteousness for salvation.
His Blood is the Gift of Eternal Life that takes away the Death Penalty of our sins - washes all our sins away.

That is why I ask the question.
How was Jesus God?
In origin, yes
in son-ship, yes
in Spirit, yes
in physical form as in his human flesh, NO.

He had to become like one of us in order to be our Savior.

He was only like us in human flesh because He is the seed of the woman, His nature was spiritual because He was born by the Holy Spirit - NOT Adam. Our nature was sinful because we were born from Adam yet, after we are Born Again - then we have a spiritual nature and no longer have a sinful nature.

Jesus was God on the Earth preparing a human body for sacrifice - The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 10:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In his flesh he was man without sin, nothing more or less then what Adam once was.
That is why he is called the second Adam.

Fully Man in his flesh to represent us.
Fully God in Spirit to save us.

it just brings his humbling sacrifice and obedience of becoming a man into a greater light.

Understanding ALL THE WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that Jesus Christ did for us is absolutely amazing! His love for us is so vast - there's no end.

This is an interesting and enjoyable discussion I am having with you!

 

[pottersclay]

Jesus is the example of the Trinity of God.

 

[Lion222]

@Lion222 - You ask great questions that lead us to go in search of Truth! Excellent!



Jesus referred to Himself as The Son of God and The Son of Man (firstborn of new man - spiritual nature without sin yet, knowing good and evil).

He was born by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb because Jesus Christ is The Seed of the woman that God was referring to in Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Luke 1:35 King James Version (KJV)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.




Jesus aged and died because God was preparing a body to be sacrificed for the sins of the world. It would have to be without spot or blemish - perfect fulfillment of the Law, Prophets and penalty of sin.

In His physical body, Jesus Christ fulfilled ALL of the works of the Law of Moses and ALL that the Prophets had spoken/written about Him as Messiah.

Born of a virgin, circumcised on the 8th day, about His Father's business at the age of 12, water baptized in the Jordan River, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, the dumb speak, the dead are raised to life......Jesus is the Human fulfillment of the Law for us.

Right before the cross, on the Mt. of Transfiguration Jesus meets with Moses and Elijah - He is examined by The Law and The Prophets - He passed - all is fulfilled and recorded in His body - He becomes transfigured because He passed. He has NOW completed the task of preparing a perfect body ready for sacrifice that will be accepted by the Father for us.

Time to go to the cross....one last work to be recorded in His body for us......the penalty of sin which is death, the shedding of His Blood for the forgiveness of our sins.




It's important to understand the "works of righteousness" that had to be recorded in His physical body for us - The Lord our Righteousness.

At birth, He was not yet a "perfect sacrifice" but rather, a holy pure and clean lump of clay with a spiritual nature, NOT a sinful nature.

He had to fulfill ALL THE WORKS required by the Law of Moses, ALL THE WORKS that the Prophets had spoken/written about the Messiah, and the work of the penalty of sin for us in His physical Body by shedding His Blood and dying on the cross for us.

His Body is the Gift of Righteousness for us in exchange for our filthy rags of righteousness for salvation.
His Blood is the Gift of Eternal Life that takes away the Death Penalty of our sins - washes all our sins away.



He was only like us in human flesh because He is the seed of the woman, His nature was spiritual because He was born by the Holy Spirit - NOT Adam. Our nature was sinful because we were born from Adam yet, after we are Born Again - then we have a spiritual nature and no longer have a sinful nature.

Jesus was God on the Earth preparing a human body for sacrifice - The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 10:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:




Understanding ALL THE WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that Jesus Christ did for us is absolutely amazing! His love for us is so vast - there's no end.

This is an interesting and enjoyable discussion I am having with you!

Cool, I am glad we agree.
God prepared a body a vessel for Jesus,
Jesus was not turned into a body but was united with one.
It makes sense because we are bodies vessels for spirit
Jesus was of Gods house, a Spirit and was united too what we are, flesh in order for us to be united too what He is, God in Spirit and become Family.
It is mind blowing stuff this salvation of God.
Behold what manner of love is this???
That we should be called sons of God!!!???
Unbelievable stuff that we are called to believe in order to receive.

 

[Lafftur]

Cool, I am glad we agree.
God prepared a body a vessel for Jesus,
Jesus was not turned into a body but was united with one.
It makes sense because we are bodies vessels for spirit
Jesus was of Gods house, a Spirit and was united too what we are, flesh in order for us to be united too what He is, God in Spirit and become Family.
It is mind blowing stuff this salvation of God.
Behold what manner of love is this???
That we should be called sons of God!!!???
Unbelievable stuff that we are called to believe in order to receive.

Hmmm.........I don't think we totally agree.....but, we've ventured off into some grey areas so, to each his own. The Holy Spirit will need to do the explaining and give understanding.

Just don't lose sight of First Love - rooted and grounded in Christ Jesus.