Shroud of Turin—real or fake, and why?

[ResidentAlien]

Watch the video in post 38 then tell me if you still feel that way.

https://christianchat.com/threads/shroud-of-turin—real-or-fake-and-why.200221/post-4604267

ewq1938, do you understand what he's talking about in that video. If so, can you translate it for us dummies? I felt like I was watching and listening to a robot give a presentation and gave up halfway through.

 

[Chester]

There is carbon dating but who knows what purposes those scientists had... "Science" can barley be trusted.

My conclusion remains the same.
The shroud could be authentic.

If not then it's a really mysterious piece of artwork. Something genius

But if its fake then show us how it was faked. It's the only way in my book. Till then it's possible

I agree it is possible: But I start on the premise it is false until it can be proved to be true.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope I didn't bring any evidence, as long as you don't count Gods word as evidence.

Nothing posted by you discounted the concept of a shroud existing nor did you prove God didn't want any of the linen to be preserved.

However, I proved that there were three types of linen. One was one brought by Joseph which I believe was a larger linen that was the shroud, then other verses show there was linen clothing and a napkin.

I believe God is very specific in this matter and also didn't leave relics to be lifted up as false idols.

God is against people worshiping idols but there is nothing in the bible about God hiding away things that Jesus was associated with.

 

[ewq1938]

ewq1938, do you understand what he's talking about in that video. If so, can you translate it for us dummies?

Sure. He explains that the shroud is real and it's an actual image of Jesus Christ and it also proves Jesus resurrected.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Sure. He explains that the shroud is real and it's an actual image of Jesus Christ and it also proves Jesus resurrected.

I figured that was his point, I got that much out of it. But it sounds like even you don't understand it. How does that prove anything?

 

[Lanolin]

it doesnt, just that someone made a shroud, not that it belonged to Jesus.

sorry. what about Lazarus graveclothes does anybody not wonder wherre they are, and did they stink?

 

[ewq1938]

I figured that was his point, I got that much out of it. But it sounds like even you don't understand it.

I think you are a bit confused. It was you who couldn't understand him, not me.

 

[posthuman]

it doesnt, just that someone made a shroud, not that it belonged to Jesus.

sorry. what about Lazarus graveclothes does anybody not wonder wherre they are, and did they stink?

I wonder where the garments God made for Adam and Eve are

That's a great question tho, did Lazarus really stink or was Martha wrong?

 

[Magenta]

I wonder where the garments God made for Adam and Eve are

That's a great question tho, did Lazarus really stink or was Martha wrong?

Sure makes you wonder when his very flesh was rotting

After four days, in that heat? Yes, surely the odor was rank

Lazarus was said to have a head piece as part of his burial wrappings as well...

 

[posthuman]

who today could make something like that.

Who today could make something like that is a very different question than who in the early middle ages or earlier.

One look at Roman & Greek marble sculptures demonstrates that certain people had the skill to create incredibly lifelike and accurate art a very long time ago. While in today's art-world there are very few people who have the same level of skill & knowledge, there are still some who work at the sort of 'lost art' of realism.

Just speaking as an artist myself, and as someone having studied art history, I don't really doubt it's possible to be a man-made, human conceived object. People can be very, very clever.

 

[Adstar]

The soldiers only made sure the body wasn't taken. When I said later I didn't mean much later. People followed Joseph but it is unclear if they were right behind or followed him 10 min after he went forth.

Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Yes they rested the High Sabbath day which was the first day of Unleavened bread.. So they never got a Chance to anoint the Body of Jesus untill the day after the High Sabbath and by that time the Soilders where guarding the tomb.. The guards guarded the tomb until the time they fled the tomb when the Angel came down and opened the tomb..

Matthew 28: KJV
1 "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. {2} And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. {3} His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: {4} And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men."

Matthew 28: KJV
11 "¶ Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. {12} And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, {13} Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. {14} And if this come to the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. {15} So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day."

 

[Adstar]

The Greek word in the synoptics which is translated various ways is σινδόνι (sindoni): fine linen or a linen cloth. As opposed to John— ὀθονίοις (othoniois): A linen bandage, a wrapping. The idea in John is clearly a winding but in the synoptics it's a single piece of cloth. It seems the ESV is the only one that uses the word "shroud," but it's not wrong. The meaning of the Greek is a single burial cloth, a.k.a. a shroud.

Says who?

 

[ResidentAlien]

I think you are a bit confused. It was you who couldn't understand him, not me.

If you understand it why won't you help a brother out who doesn't understand? If I'm confused and indeed you do understand it why not at least try to explain it?

 

[ResidentAlien]

Says who?

I say. If you have another opinion fine. I'm not going to quibble.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes they rested the High Sabbath day which was the first day of Unleavened bread.. So they never got a Chance to anoint the Body of Jesus untill the day after the High Sabbath and by that time the Soilders where guarding the tomb.e him, and secure you. {15} So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day."

I noticed this:

Joh 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes , about an hundred pound weight.
Joh 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices , as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
Joh 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

 

[ewq1938]

If you understand it why won't you help a brother out who doesn't understand? If I'm confused and indeed you do understand it why not at least try to explain it?

I already did that.

 

[Lanolin]

well all the pictures and ilustrations of Lazarus showed him wound in linen strips not one huge cloth draped over his head.
I dont think burial would have changed much by the time Jesus was crucified.

If only someone had thought to save Lazarus shroud hey. Then more people would have believed right?

 

[posthuman]

in the early 1990's a South African Art Historian & Scientist named Nicholas Allen was able to reproduce a shroud-like image using a camera-obscura and a linen cloth treated with silver & sulphur nitrate. the camera-obscura technique was certainly known as far back as Plato, lenses of the quality necessary were easily available & manufactured in Italy in the 13th century, and knowledge of the light-sensitive chemical elements was documented as far back as the 11th century. that is, he used methods and materials that could have been possible and known of in the early 1300's when the shroud first appeared.

article:
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstre...Mare_Science(1999).pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

he called the thing he produced the 'shroud of Port Elizabeth'

images:

 

[posthuman]

When you take a rubbing of something, you do end up with a negative image. Its really not that hard to do.
My thought is someone made a waxwork dummy or statue of a crucfied man that they thought looked like Jesus would have looked, covered it with cloth and rubbed it to transfer the image.

There's no pigment on the cloth. the top layer of the linen itself is somehow discolored, like from heat, forming the image.

 

[ZNP]

According to the Jewish burial custom of the time, bodies were wrapped in strips of cloth. For example, in John 11:44, Lazarus is described as being wrapped in "linen strips."

But the accounts in the gospels differ. The synoptics take their cues from Mark, saying He was wrapped in a linen shroud provided by Joseph of Arimathea. John, however, says "they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."

In John 20:6-7, when Peter and John rushed to the tomb, it says: "Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself."

If there was a face cloth that was separate from the rest, then this obviously couldn't refer to the Shroud of Turin since it (the Shroud of Turin) is all one piece. John's gospel is the only one that records this detail.

I have mixed feelings. The shroud is a negative image of a person. If it's a forgery, how would that have even been done (in negative I mean)? But the idea of a single piece of cloth runs counter to the burial customs of the Jews at the time. However, Matthew, Mark and Luke says they wrapped Him in a linen shroud.

What are your opinions?

The Shroud of Turin is the most studied object in human history, they have performed every test known to man on it. You cannot definitively claim it is a fake unless you can replicate how it was done and no one has been able to do that. Any other object would have long ago been proclaimed legitimate, the only reason they haven't done so with the Shroud is because of the implication of scientific evidence of the resurrection.

There are only two possible conclusions at this point, either the forger is the greatest forger in human history and did this forgery without any motive of making money or even of seeing his forgery fool others or it is legitimate.