Romans 5 verse 18

[Yahcubs777]

Yes since from the first person to today names are written in . Not before we existed. Thats Calvinism/ Arminism

The children of the kingdom all existed from the foundation of the world in the fathers Bosom. It is the GOD who sends the children of the kingdom into the womb of their biological mother. GOD is the giver of children. We are not the body, we are the Spirit Being. The body is our garment, our passport into this earth.

A child is born, a son is given.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Thats philosophy. Never start a study from philosophy.

It is not, it is speaking on how the GOD operates. You must think HE is reactionary since you belive HE writes the names in when that person believes. You are talking about the GOD who is all knowing. The GOD who knows when the child will seek HIM, and does not need to wait for them to do so. HE knows what choices they will make, at each time in their life. HE is all knowing. Therefore, why would HE be reactionary?

 

[throughfaith]

It is not, it is speaking on how the GOD operates. You must think HE is reactionary since you belive HE writes the names in when that person believes. You are talking about the GOD who is all knowing. The GOD who knows when the child will seek HIM, and does not need to wait for them to do so. HE knows what choices they will make, at each time in their life. HE is all knowing. Therefore, why would HE be reactionary?

I'm talking about the God who has revealed himself in his word that said He saves those that believe . Not cause belief in those he saves . 1 cor 1.21 .

 

[Yahcubs777]

I'm talking about the God who has revealed himself in his word that said He saves those that believe . Not cause belief in those he saves . 1 cor 1.21 .

My point is HE already knows at what point that will happen, if it will happen at all. Therefore, why would HE wait to write the names in of those that HE knows will believe?

 

[throughfaith]

My point is HE already knows at what point that will happen, if it will happen at all. Therefore, why would HE wait to write the names in of those that HE knows will believe?

philosophy. I see this is also the lens in which you approach scripture?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Do you think GOD is reactionary?

Exactly. Our Powerful, Almighty God is not an innocent bystander. Rather, He is the Grand Orchestrator.

Isaiah 45:7 KJV - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

[Yahcubs777]

philosophy. I see this is also the lens in which you approach scripture?

No not at all. I know my GOD is all knowing and cannot make mistakes.

 

[throughfaith]

My point is HE already knows at what point that will happen, if it will happen at all. Therefore, why would HE wait to write the names in of those that HE knows will believe?

I've a just started a post on here , called ' minimising our Axioms ' . Its how we approach the bible and the conclusions we reach .

 

[Yahcubs777]

I've a just started a post on here , called ' minimising our Axioms ' . Its how we approach the bible and the conclusions we reach .

Ill check it out some time.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Does anyone have a verse where the free gift unto justification of life is an
exclusive gift?

The information you seek is located back in post No.6 which quotes a verse
penned by the very same apostle who penned Rom 5:18
_

 

[throughfaith]

.



The information you seek is located back in post No.6 which quotes a verse
penned by the very same apostle who penned Rom 5:18
_

Different word ( righteousness) I asked
'Does anyone have a verse where the FREE GIFT UNTO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE is an
exclusive gift?' Its available to all men .

 

[throughfaith]

.



The information you seek is located back in post No.6 which quotes a verse
penned by the very same apostle who penned Rom 5:18
_

My point was reguarding the verse in question ,which says that the free gift of Justification unto life is available to all men without distinction.

 

[birdie]

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Does any one have a verse where the free gift unto justification of life is an exclusive gift ?
The verse says the free gift is unto ALL MEN . A gift has to be recieved .
All the mentions of ' gift ' in Romans 5 is in relation to it needing to be received. This receiving is not passive but active .
Romans 5 makes clear that the free gift of justification is available and unto all . ALL can receive . Jesus reconciled ALL . ALL can believe. ALL can be saved .

The Bible is written in parable form (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4:34) and if you read the scripture in question in Romans 5 as a surface text you will get confused, in my opinion. In English, the term 'all' or 'all men' would simply mean everyone or every man. However, we have to compare the Bible with other parts of the Bible to get at the Bible meaning of the term, which appears to me to be a parable term used to describe 'all those who are saved'. That is a different meaning from just the normal English interpretation of the term 'all'. Someone here named Crossnote quoted a very good scripture to help clarify, in my opinion, how God uses the term: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" This is showing that the term 'all' in the Bible can be used to describe a specific group of persons unto whom and upon whom this salvation of righteousness by faith occurs. It is saying: All = All who believe. It does not seem to be saying All persons who are on the planet or who were or will be; only those who believe. However, other verses in the Bible address whatever predestination questions people seem concerned about. My opinion is that the Bible says that God enables those who he wants to be his true believers (his sheep so to speak) to hear his voice and to believe on him. It is an act of God. Without God first enabling a person to believe, they would not be able to believe.


People might find it hard to imagine that God would use the term 'all' to mean only 'all who believe' and not to just mean all persons generally. However, the Bible is full of these sorts of usages where a term needs to be defined by the Bible itself, not by modern English. For example, consider the term 'blessed'. A person uses this term today to mean something good has happened to them and they were lucky it did or they were enabled in that thing because God was good to them. For example, I was blessed to get a good grade in school, or I was blessed to make a lot of money. However, the Bible term blessed has a somewhat different definition. It is used to describe those persons who are saved. For example: "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered". When the Bible says, "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" Here, we can see (if God has enabled us to see) that the term "all nations" is not referring to everyone on planet earth (like every Phoenician, or every Russian, or every American). Rather, the term "all nations" must mean all those who are saved. We know this because these are the people who are described using the term "blessed". Blessed means those whose sins are covered.

 

[throughfaith]

The Bible is written in parable form (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4:34) and if you read the scripture in question in Romans 5 as a surface text you will get confused, in my opinion. In English, the term 'all' or 'all men' would simply mean everyone or every man. However, we have to compare the Bible with other parts of the Bible to get at the Bible meaning of the term, which appears to me to be a parable term used to describe 'all those who are saved'. That is a different meaning from just the normal English interpretation of the term 'all'. Someone here named Crossnote quoted a very good scripture to help clarify, in my opinion, how God uses the term: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" This is showing that the term 'all' in the Bible can be used to describe a specific group of persons unto whom and upon whom this salvation of righteousness by faith occurs. It is saying: All = All who believe. It does not seem to be saying All persons who are on the planet or who were or will be; only those who believe. However, other verses in the Bible address whatever predestination questions people seem concerned about. My opinion is that the Bible says that God enables those who he wants to be his true believers (his sheep so to speak) to hear his voice and to believe on him. It is an act of God. Without God first enabling a person to believe, they would not be able to believe.


People might find it hard to imagine that God would use the term 'all' to mean only 'all who believe' and not to just mean all persons generally. However, the Bible is full of these sorts of usages where a term needs to be defined by the Bible itself, not by modern English. For example, consider the term 'blessed'. A person uses this term today to mean something good has happened to them and they were lucky it did or they were enabled in that thing because God was good to them. For example, I was blessed to get a good grade in school, or I was blessed to make a lot of money. However, the Bible term blessed has a somewhat different definition. It is used to describe those persons who are saved. For example: "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered". When the Bible says, "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" Here, we can see (if God has enabled us to see) that the term "all nations" is not referring to everyone on planet earth (like every Phoenician, or every Russian, or every American). Rather, the term "all nations" must mean all those who are saved. We know this because these are the people who are described using the term "blessed". Blessed means those whose sins are covered.

I would say that if it includes 'all who believe, then that means 'all who believe. But to the verses in question .
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT . For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

THE GIFT HAS TO BE RECEIVED.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT ( GIFT HAS TO BE RECIEVED) is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which RECIEVE abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) ( ITS BEEN RECIEVED HERE )

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; ( ALL MEANS ALL HERE) even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. ( SAME HERE ) IT COMES UPON ALL IN THE SENSE OF BEING AVAILABLE TO ALL , BUT THEY NEED TO RECEIVE

19For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, ( CLEARLY HERE THIS MEANS ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION ) so by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous. ( IF THEY RECIEVE )

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so MIGHT !!!!! grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[throughfaith]

The Bible is written in parable form (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4:34) and if you read the scripture in question in Romans 5 as a surface text you will get confused, in my opinion. In English, the term 'all' or 'all men' would simply mean everyone or every man. However, we have to compare the Bible with other parts of the Bible to get at the Bible meaning of the term, which appears to me to be a parable term used to describe 'all those who are saved'. That is a different meaning from just the normal English interpretation of the term 'all'. Someone here named Crossnote quoted a very good scripture to help clarify, in my opinion, how God uses the term: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" This is showing that the term 'all' in the Bible can be used to describe a specific group of persons unto whom and upon whom this salvation of righteousness by faith occurs. It is saying: All = All who believe. It does not seem to be saying All persons who are on the planet or who were or will be; only those who believe. However, other verses in the Bible address whatever predestination questions people seem concerned about. My opinion is that the Bible says that God enables those who he wants to be his true believers (his sheep so to speak) to hear his voice and to believe on him. It is an act of God. Without God first enabling a person to believe, they would not be able to believe.


People might find it hard to imagine that God would use the term 'all' to mean only 'all who believe' and not to just mean all persons generally. However, the Bible is full of these sorts of usages where a term needs to be defined by the Bible itself, not by modern English. For example, consider the term 'blessed'. A person uses this term today to mean something good has happened to them and they were lucky it did or they were enabled in that thing because God was good to them. For example, I was blessed to get a good grade in school, or I was blessed to make a lot of money. However, the Bible term blessed has a somewhat different definition. It is used to describe those persons who are saved. For example: "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered". When the Bible says, "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" Here, we can see (if God has enabled us to see) that the term "all nations" is not referring to everyone on planet earth (like every Phoenician, or every Russian, or every American). Rather, the term "all nations" must mean all those who are saved. We know this because these are the people who are described using the term "blessed". Blessed means those whose sins are covered.

Psalm 78
NOTHING HERE ABOUT HOW THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS A PARABLE ?
1¶[[Maschil of Asaph.]] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

2I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

3Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.

4We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.

5For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

And Mark 4 is specific why and to whom he speaks parables . Its not EVERYTHING he ever spoke was a parable. This is a spin your putting on 2 verses .
33¶And with many such parables spake he the word unto THEM , as they were able to hear it.

34But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

IN THESES VERSES IT EXPLAINS WHY .

 

[throughfaith]

The Bible is written in parable form (Psalm 78:1-2, Mark 4:34) and if you read the scripture in question in Romans 5 as a surface text you will get confused, in my opinion. In English, the term 'all' or 'all men' would simply mean everyone or every man. However, we have to compare the Bible with other parts of the Bible to get at the Bible meaning of the term, which appears to me to be a parable term used to describe 'all those who are saved'. That is a different meaning from just the normal English interpretation of the term 'all'. Someone here named Crossnote quoted a very good scripture to help clarify, in my opinion, how God uses the term: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" This is showing that the term 'all' in the Bible can be used to describe a specific group of persons unto whom and upon whom this salvation of righteousness by faith occurs. It is saying: All = All who believe. It does not seem to be saying All persons who are on the planet or who were or will be; only those who believe. However, other verses in the Bible address whatever predestination questions people seem concerned about. My opinion is that the Bible says that God enables those who he wants to be his true believers (his sheep so to speak) to hear his voice and to believe on him. It is an act of God. Without God first enabling a person to believe, they would not be able to believe.


People might find it hard to imagine that God would use the term 'all' to mean only 'all who believe' and not to just mean all persons generally. However, the Bible is full of these sorts of usages where a term needs to be defined by the Bible itself, not by modern English. For example, consider the term 'blessed'. A person uses this term today to mean something good has happened to them and they were lucky it did or they were enabled in that thing because God was good to them. For example, I was blessed to get a good grade in school, or I was blessed to make a lot of money. However, the Bible term blessed has a somewhat different definition. It is used to describe those persons who are saved. For example: "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered". When the Bible says, "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed" Here, we can see (if God has enabled us to see) that the term "all nations" is not referring to everyone on planet earth (like every Phoenician, or every Russian, or every American). Rather, the term "all nations" must mean all those who are saved. We know this because these are the people who are described using the term "blessed". Blessed means those whose sins are covered.

The direct meaning of the actual verses in question have to be understood first before we go floating off to other scriptures .

 

[birdie]

I would say that if it includes 'all who believe, then that means 'all who believe. But to the verses in question .
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT . For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

THE GIFT HAS TO BE RECEIVED.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT ( GIFT HAS TO BE RECIEVED) is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which RECIEVE abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) ( ITS BEEN RECIEVED HERE )

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; ( ALL MEANS ALL HERE) even so by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. ( SAME HERE ) IT COMES UPON ALL IN THE SENSE OF BEING AVAILABLE TO ALL , BUT THEY NEED TO RECEIVE

19For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, ( CLEARLY HERE THIS MEANS ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION ) so by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous. ( IF THEY RECIEVE )

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so MIGHT !!!!! grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, we disagree in few things I think. There are a couple places where you seem clearly sure that 'all' means every human being or 'many' means every human being. While we like to think that everyone has a chance to be saved, I would put it a different way. Everyone has a chance for the gospel to be preached to them (by whatever means), but it is God who gives a person the ability to receive and to be saved. If you look at the verse you quote about the transgression, it says that death reigned from Adam to Moses and then it defines that group as the group that did not sin in the same way as Adam (who was a picture of Christ). The Bible says that Adam was not deceived, but Eve, being deceived, was in the transgression. This is telling us, most likely, that Adam's sin was like Christ's sin in the sense that he became sin for the sake of the woman, to save her. Eve is the woman being spoken of and she is the mother of all living, meaning she is a picture of the Jerusalem above, the truth believers of promise. Death reigned on the true believers who are the MANY, the ALL, being spoken of. That is why Jesus had to give his life as a ransom so that the MANY true believers, the ALL true believers could be given life from death. So I think we disagree about places which you claim verse speak of Many or All being everyone whether a believer or not.

 

[birdie]

Psalm 78
NOTHING HERE ABOUT HOW THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS A PARABLE ?
1¶[[Maschil of Asaph.]] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

2I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

3Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.

4We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.

5For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

And Mark 4 is specific why and to whom he speaks parables . Its not EVERYTHING he ever spoke was a parable. This is a spin your putting on 2 verses .
33¶And with many such parables spake he the word unto THEM , as they were able to hear it.

34But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

IN THESES VERSES IT EXPLAINS WHY .

"Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

2I will open my mouth in a parable" We understand this verse differently. God's law is the entire Bible in my opinion. Psalm 19 is a good place to see this. How does God open his mouth. I think that the answer is the Bible. That is why it mentions the law. Then he tells us that he opens his mouth, and that is the Bible, the law, in a parable.

Similarly, Mark chapter 4 clues us in on the fact that without a parable Jesus (the word of God) did not even speak. In other words, the entire Bible is a parable. The chapter goes on to say that the unsaved encounter the Bible but it is a parable that they do not understand. He also explains in the same chapter that it is given to those who are save to understand, but to those that are unsaved it is not. Traditionally, 'churches' have not understood this and I am not at all surprised that you find it a new teaching or that you might even reject it. Notice in chapter 4 that God tells us how to understand mysteries (parables). He gives us the parable of the sower in which English words have different meanings than the actual surface text. A seed, for example, means the word of God.

 

[throughfaith]

Yes, we disagree in few things I think. There are a couple places where you seem clearly sure that 'all' means every human being or 'many' means every human being. While we like to think that everyone has a chance to be saved, I would put it a different way. Everyone has a chance for the gospel to be preached to them (by whatever means), but it is God who gives a person the ability to receive and to be saved. If you look at the verse you quote about the transgression, it says that death reigned from Adam to Moses and then it defines that group as the group that did not sin in the same way as Adam (who was a picture of Christ). The Bible says that Adam was not deceived, but Eve, being deceived, was in the transgression. This is telling us, most likely, that Adam's sin was like Christ's sin in the sense that he became sin for the sake of the woman, to save her. Eve is the woman being spoken of and she is the mother of all living, meaning she is a picture of the Jerusalem above, the truth believers of promise. Death reigned on the true believers who are the MANY, the ALL, being spoken of. That is why Jesus had to give his life as a ransom so that the MANY true believers, the ALL true believers could be given life from death. So I think we disagree about places which you claim verse speak of Many or All being everyone whether a believer or not.

When you say // but it is God who gives a person the ability to receive and to be saved./// what do you mean? this could be affecting how your reading the text maybe .

 

[throughfaith]

"Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

2I will open my mouth in a parable" We understand this verse differently. God's law is the entire Bible in my opinion. Psalm 19 is a good place to see this. How does God open his mouth. I think that the answer is the Bible. That is why it mentions the law. Then he tells us that he opens his mouth, and that is the Bible, the law, in a parable.

Similarly, Mark chapter 4 clues us in on the fact that without a parable Jesus (the word of God) did not even speak. In other words, the entire Bible is a parable. The chapter goes on to say that the unsaved encounter the Bible but it is a parable that they do not understand. He also explains in the same chapter that it is given to those who are save to understand, but to those that are unsaved it is not. Traditionally, 'churches' have not understood this and I am not at all surprised that you find it a new teaching or that you might even reject it. Notice in chapter 4 that God tells us how to understand mysteries (parables). He gives us the parable of the sower in which English words have different meanings than the actual surface text. A seed, for example, means the word of God.

No verse says all the bible is a parable. We should only believe something in the bible if it says so . This isn't the trinity where its something as hard as God could try we wouldn't fully grasp .

10¶And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto THEM in parables?
11¶He answered and said unto THEM , Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Whos the them ? Jesus is not speaking parables from 12 years old to revelation lol . Nor is the bible a complete parable. No he speaks in Parables at a specific time ,for a specific reason to specific people .
Simple. I didn't need to speculate , assume or give you my ' opinion ' . Its what it actually says .