Revelation in Chronological Order?

[Nehemiah6]

So if you're going to hold to a literal interpretation then at least be consistent...

You are simply being disingenuous.

1. The Bible must be read and interpreted in its plain literal sense when that is the sense. And this is generally the case.

2. Metaphors, symbols, parables and figures of speech must be accepted as such, and interpreted through what is already revealed in Scripture.

Let's take the example of the beasts in Revelation 13 and correctly interpret them.
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So if we read through this entire chapter, we see the interpretation of the first beast in verse 18. He is A MAN. And we know from other Scriptures that he is called the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Little Horn, the King of Fierce Countenance. Therefore conservative Christian commentators have called him "THE ANTICHRIST". He has Satan as his source of supernatural power, and God allows him and Satan to have 42 months (3 1/2 years) of total control and authority over all the inhabitants of the earth.

Then how should we interpret the seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns, and the appearance of a bizarre creature which looks like a leopard, has the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion? All these images have already been presented in the book of Daniel, so it is really quite simple.

The visions in Daniel show us the relationship between Israel and the successive Gentile empires (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) which controlled Palestine and the entire region around the Mediterranean Sea. The heads, horns and crowns are all representative of rulers and kingdoms. The comparison to various wild animals was to show us the characteristics of those empires and kingdoms. and we know that the Roman empire was the final and most powerful of them all.

But since the reign of the Antichrist is yet in the future, what we have today from the former Roman empire is the European Union and also the Muslim nations around the Mediterranean. Therefore there will come a time when there will be ten of those nations who will ally themselves with the Antichrist, three of whom will "fall", and the remaining seven will be dominated by the Little Horn (the Antichrist) -- the arch blasphemer of God.

And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. (Dan 7:20).

Also, because this man must sit in the future temple of God in Jerusalem, claiming that he is God, he must be a RENEGADE JEW (probably from Iraq where Assyria was located) and he will make a bogus treaty with the Orthodox Jews at that time. The second beast is the False Prophet with miracle working powers who will support the Antichrist and the worship of the Abomination of Desolation (the image of the Beast).

How do we know that the reign of the Antichrist is still in the future? Because history as well as current events show us that there has never been a man on this earth with supernatural Satanic powers who has been allowed TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE control of the whole world, demanding that every human being take a specific mark (either a tattoo or an implant) upon pain of death.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

The answer to your claims is simple in that, God's word directly tells us that He used those nations to bring those judgments. That is not the case with the historic view which Yahshua is and has been presenting. We have scripture which tells us that God used the Babylonians to bring judgment upon Israel for her disobedience. However, when referring to the Gaul's, Goths, etc. there is no information linking them and the other armies that he mentions, as representing the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. None whatsoever! The dates and events that he sites are random without any way of proving what he is claiming.

I have been saying that God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are to be interpreted in the literal sense. Below is an example:

1st Trumpet: "he first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

Now, did you see any mention about Goths invading Rome from the north called a "hailstorm" by historian Claudian (400-410AD); burning everything they conquered? No! These are God's direct plagues of wrath that will be poured out upon the earth. The results being that a third of the earth and a third of the trees will be burned up. The Goths invading Rome, (though they may have set things on fire), does not meet the conditions of the scripture which states that a third of the earth and a third of the trees will be burned up. The fact is that, we have no fulfillment of a third of the earth and trees ever being burned in order to satisfy this event.

Imagine a pie representing the earth and cut a third of it out. That is how much of the earth and trees upon the earth is going to be burned, which will be accomplished through this hail and fire, mixed with blood being hurled to the earth. The result will be a literal third of the earth and trees being burned up. There is no reason to involve the Goths or when Rome when they are not even mentioned, nor the dates in which this event takes place. Do you understand?

It is the same regarding all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. These should be interpreted literally as plagues of wrath which God is going to use to decimate the majority of the earths population and to dismantle all of human government. This is supported by when Jesus said, "If those days had not been shorten, then no flesh would survive." In other words, if those events of wrath were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, there would be no one left alive on the earth by the time Jesus returned to end the age.

I'm just saying, read it and believe what you're reading, until you come to events or information that requires an obvious symbolic intepretation.

The Roman Catholic people of Middle Ages Europe worshipped the Crucifix (an image of some mortal man, see Romans 1:23) and marked themselves with this image in the sign of the cross (crucifix) and with the impositions of ashes. These people supported a religious organization that implemented the Inquisition, where those who refused to worship the image and be marked with it were persecuted and sometimes tortured and killed.

So God delivered upon these people judgement (aka the first bowl of wrath), which was the Black Death were half to two-thirds of those in Europe fell to the disease which gave them ugly festering sores.

The first bowl of wrath (Rev 16:2)
" The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

Why can't this be prophesy fulfillment? Was the judgement not severe enough? Do not all the pieces align? What?

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Roman Catholic people of Middle Ages Europe worshipped the Crucifix (an image of some mortal man, see Romans 1:23) and marked themselves with this image in the sign of the cross (crucifix) and with the impositions of ashes. These people supported a religious organization that implemented the Inquisition, where those who refused to worship the image and be marked with it were persecuted and sometimes tortured and killed.

Here is the scripture:

"And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark—the name of the beast or the number of its name. "

So, in keeping with the scripture which states that no one will be able to buy or sell except he had the mark of the beast, how does your information above fit that criteria?

In no other time in history have we been able to electronically credit and debit (buy and sell) our bank accounts. This coming mark will replace cash and checks, as well as all other forms of electronic crediting and debiting. In support of this, we already have the technology for subdermal chip implants under the skin of the hand, which I am sure will continue to evolve into something more applicable by the time the beast is revealed. We already have people making purchases using these subdermal chip implants in different parts of the world. Sweden and her sister countries are way ahead of America in this technology in that, they are already pretty much cash free and relying on electronic crediting and debiting. The fact that we have this subdermal implant under the skin of the hand would demonstrate that 1). the mark will literally be placed in the right hand or forehead and 2). That it is a literal mark/device and is not symbolic as some have suggested.

During the time of the beast, all other forms of buying and selling will be made obsolete, with his mark as being the only valid method of electronically crediting and debiting ones bank account. That's were the world is headed. That said, your reference above regarding the mark and the image does not fit the criteria.

So God delivered upon these people judgement (aka the first bowl of wrath), which was the Black Death were half to two-thirds of those in Europe fell to the disease which gave them ugly festering sores.

The world has yet to see even the first seal being opened, which is figuratively representing the antichrist. The ugly, painful sores mentioned at the 1st bowl judgment, will be the result of those who will have received the mark on/in the hand or on/in the forehead. The mark has to do with buying and selling in the future and has nothing to do with the black Death of Europe.

Many do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. All of these applications dilute His coming wrath. These seals, trumpet bowl judgments and their results, will take place in a short period of time in close proximity of one another within a seven year period, with the Lord returning to the earth to end the age after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

The first bowl of wrath (Rev 16:2)
" The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

Why can't this be prophesy fulfillment? Was the judgement not severe enough? Do not all the pieces align? What?

See the above information. The mark and all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire earth and not just Europe.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Roman Catholic people of Middle Ages Europe worshipped the Crucifix (an image of some mortal man, see Romans 1:23) and marked themselves with this image in the sign of the cross (crucifix) and with the impositions of ashes. These people supported a religious organization that implemented the Inquisition, where those who refused to worship the image and be marked with it were persecuted and sometimes tortured and killed.

So God delivered upon these people judgement (aka the first bowl of wrath), which was the Black Death were half to two-thirds of those in Europe fell to the disease which gave them ugly festering sores.

The first bowl of wrath (Rev 16:2)
" The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

Why can't this be prophesy fulfillment? Was the judgement not severe enough? Do not all the pieces align? What?

In addition, the other reason why your claim regarding Europe and the black death as referring to the ugly sores brought about by those receiving the mark taking place in the middle ages, is that the events of the seals, trumpets, bowls, the revealing of the antichrist and his mark, are all directly related to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and that has not yet happened. In support of this, we have the beast and the false prophet being captured and being thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus returns to end the age, as revealed in Revelation 19:20, which would demonstrate the proximity of these events and the revealing of the beast with the Lord's return.

 

[Yahshua]

We cannot not pigeonhole the information in Revelation as being all symbolic. This is your problem! It requires discernment on the part of the reader. Most of the literal means behind the symbolism in Revelation are revealed right in the book itself. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all literal. There is no symbolism in them. These are the literal wrath of God that is going to be released upon the earth. There is no need to symbolize them, for when you do, you distort the literal meaning. What is conveyed in each plague of wrath is exactly what is going to happen upon the earth.

Now to be clear, John describes things in the way he sees them in the visions. For example, at the sounding of the 5th trumpet he says "I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss." Well, we know that a star cannot be given a key to the Abyss. And as we read more we realize that the star is referring to an angel, but in his vision John it was portrayed to John as a star. Stars are also used symbolically to represent Satan's angels in Revelation 12:4 where the dragon, symbolically representing Satan, draws a third of the stars out of heaven and casts them to the earth. As we read farther in chapter twelve we find that the dragon and stars are symbolically representing Satan and his angels.

As I said, you cannot pigeonhole all of the information in Revelation as being symbolic, which is the cause of your problem. For by doing so, you ignore the plain literal meaning and force a symbolic meaning, distorting the truth.

I actually agree with most of your reply up to the point of discussing pigeonholing the information and saying "it requires discernment".

Because what it implies from your posts is that you're the only one with the special discernment while everything else is in error. I don't mean this as an attack or challenge but as an observation. It appears you're the one who deems what is symbolic and what is to be taken literally, but Revelation was written to ALL servants across all time up to today (regardless whether we currently believe some events were fulfilled or still in the future).

It also should be noted so I'm not misunderstood that I believe every single event described in heaven happens as recorded in Revelation, but it will not MANIFEST the same in the physical world.

For instance, I believe in 7 literal heavenly seals that are to be broken by the Messiah's literal hand...and when the first 4 are broken there are 4 spirits literally sent from heaven to the earth...and those 4 spirits each have a task to perform on the earth...

BUT SPIRITS ARE NOT NATURALLY VISIBLE ON EARTH (in caps for emphasis). So we will never SEE four horsemen. We will only ever witness the EFFECTS of these 4 spirits being loosed...and the effects will be *experienced* in and through ordinary people.

Revelation 6 says each horseman was sent for:

- Conquering
- War
- Famine
- Death


The book of Zechariah describes the same kind of spirits being loosed for judgment from the Almighty, so a precedent has been established that these will not be SEEN but will be experienced in the lives of people.


- So how will people be conquered? Through other people.

- How will wars begin? Between nations of people.

- Who will experience famine? People will, through other people's economic greed.

...and then it's people who will experience death. But death has always been with us, so this spirit logically must cause MASS deaths. And the only thing that can cause mass deaths that's not from war is through "bugs" (i.e. deadly diseases). Even microscopic bugs are a type of animal/beasts.

So in the physical world, these will be considered "events", not spirits. Again, WE KNOW they are spirits, but in the physical/material world they will be considered "human events".

....now, where have we heard this list of four human events prophesied to happen, in order?


Answer: At the Olivet Discourse by the Messiah (Matthew 24 & Luke 21).


See what I mean?

 

[Yahshua]

You are simply being disingenuous.

1. The Bible must be read and interpreted in its plain literal sense when that is the sense. And this is generally the case.

2. Metaphors, symbols, parables and figures of speech must be accepted as such, and interpreted through what is already revealed in Scripture.

Let's take the example of the beasts in Revelation 13 and correctly interpret them.
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So if we read through this entire chapter, we see the interpretation of the first beast in verse 18. He is A MAN. And we know from other Scriptures that he is called the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Little Horn, the King of Fierce Countenance. Therefore conservative Christian commentators have called him "THE ANTICHRIST". He has Satan as his source of supernatural power, and God allows him and Satan to have 42 months (3 1/2 years) of total control and authority over all the inhabitants of the earth.

Then how should we interpret the seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns, and the appearance of a bizarre creature which looks like a leopard, has the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion? All these images have already been presented in the book of Daniel, so it is really quite simple.

The visions in Daniel show us the relationship between Israel and the successive Gentile empires (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) which controlled Palestine and the entire region around the Mediterranean Sea. The heads, horns and crowns are all representative of rulers and kingdoms. The comparison to various wild animals was to show us the characteristics of those empires and kingdoms. and we know that the Roman empire was the final and most powerful of them all.

But since the reign of the Antichrist is yet in the future, what we have today from the former Roman empire is the European Union and also the Muslim nations around the Mediterranean. Therefore there will come a time when there will be ten of those nations who will ally themselves with the Antichrist, three of whom will "fall", and the remaining seven will be dominated by the Little Horn (the Antichrist) -- the arch blasphemer of God.

And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. (Dan 7:20).

Also, because this man must sit in the future temple of God in Jerusalem, claiming that he is God, he must be a RENEGADE JEW (probably from Iraq where Assyria was located) and he will make a bogus treaty with the Orthodox Jews at that time. The second beast is the False Prophet with miracle working powers who will support the Antichrist and the worship of the Abomination of Desolation (the image of the Beast).

How do we know that the reign of the Antichrist is still in the future? Because history as well as current events show us that there has never been a man on this earth with supernatural Satanic powers who has been allowed TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE control of the whole world, demanding that every human being take a specific mark (either a tattoo or an implant) upon pain of death.

Nehemiah, you're not reading my post in context to the conversation I'm having with Ahwatukee, else you wouldn't have posted this reply. You're replying to an argument I'm not making and missing my point.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

In addition, the other reason why your claim regarding Europe and the black death as referring to the ugly sores brought about by those receiving the mark taking place in the middle ages, is that the events of the seals, trumpets, bowls, the revealing of the antichrist and his mark, are all directly related to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and that has not yet happened. In support of this, we have the beast and the false prophet being captured and being thrown into the lake of fire when Jesus returns to end the age, as revealed in Revelation 19:20, which would demonstrate the proximity of these events and the revealing of the beast with the Lord's return.

We cannot say for certain the beast is one and only one person. Same with the false prophet. When you make one false declaration and then insist on pegging it to other prophesies you then wind up making many false assumptions.

Why your decalaration might be false: If we hold God to saying that "prophet" in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 means one prophet and only one prophet, we then make God out to be a liar, since we know that more than one prophet followed Moses. Likewise, if we hold God to saying that the "man of lawlessness" is one and only one person, we also might be mis-interpreting God's word.

Perhaps why God chose to use the singular "prophet" and "main of lawlessness" instead of using a plural term is to indicate that each person might have one around during their own lifetime.

What have you to say?

 

[Nehemiah6]

We cannot say for certain the beast is one and only one person. Same with the false prophet.

If that is the case we cannot say for certain ANYTHING that is in the Bible. Take some time to study what the Bible says about the end times.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I actually agree with most of your reply up to the point of discussing pigeonholing the information and saying "it requires discernment".

Because what it implies from your posts is that you're the only one with the special discernment while everything else is in error. I don't mean this as an attack or challenge but as an observation. It appears you're the one who deems what is symbolic and what is to be taken literally, but Revelation was written to ALL servants across all time up to today (regardless whether we currently believe some events were fulfilled or still in the future).

Actually, my discernment of what is literal and what is symbolic is based on scripture and common sense. The letters to the churches, their commendations, rebukes and warnings to repent and overcome, were to those literal churches as examples and to the entire church period. However, from chapter 4 onward which is the "what will take place later" part of what John was told to write, is still future. Currently, we are still living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord gathers the church, then the "what must take place later" will begin.

Revelation was written to ALL servants across all time up to today

When Isaiah prophesied to king Ahaz, he told him "the Lord himself will give you a sign. A virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and will call him Emmanuel." That prophecy was given about 700 years prior to when Jesus was born. So, the fulfillment didn't take place until approximately 700 years later. It is the same here in Revelation. These prophesies regarding God's wrath are meant to take place in conjunction with the Lord's return to end the age. We know this because, when the Lord returns the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. This demonstrates that the time of the beasts reign will be in close proximity to when Christ returns. Therefore, these events of wrath which are described as taking place leading up to the Lord's return demonstrate that these could not have been fulfilled throughout history, but must happen during the beasts reign when all of the people of the earth will worship him. We have had nothing like this happen yet. And speaking of his reign, it will be during that last 3 1/2 years that he will set up the abomination and proclaim himself to be God until the end when Jesus returns to end the age. The problem with your claims is that, Jesus has not yet returned.

It also should be noted so I'm not misunderstood that I believe every single event described in heaven happens as recorded in Revelation, but it will not MANIFEST the same in the physical world.

For instance, I believe in 7 literal heavenly seals that are to be broken by the Messiah's literal hand...and when the first 4 are broken there are 4 spirits literally sent from heaven to the earth...and those 4 spirits each have a task to perform on the earth...

Why wouldn't you think that they would not manifest the same in the physical world? After all, that is where God's wrath is going to take place. The seals, trumpets and bowls are meant to be fulfilled during that last seven years and that to punish a Christ rejecting world. The first four horses and their riders, are symbolic representing their results. There is nothing in the scripture that states they are spirits, but symbols. We do however have four angels that are mentioned in Rev.7 who are said to be given power to harm the land, trees and the sea. They are responsible for the trumpets and bowl judgments. These are all going to be actual events that, for the most part, will decimate the population of the earth. This period of wrath is also known as the day of the Lord. The following is what Zephaniah prophesied about this period:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” says the LORD.

“I will sweep away people and animals alike.

I will sweep away the birds of the sky and the fish in the sea.

I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, and I will wipe humanity from the face of the earth,” says the LORD.

The above is going to be the results of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

BUT SPIRITS ARE NOT NATURALLY VISIBLE ON EARTH

(in caps for emphasis). So we will never SEE four horsemen. We will only ever witness the EFFECTS of these 4 spirits being loosed...and the effects will be *experienced* in and through ordinary people.

Revelation 6 says each horseman was sent for:

- Conquering
- War
- Famine
- Death


The book of Zechariah describes the same kind of spirits being loosed for judgment from the Almighty, so a precedent has been established that these will not be SEEN but will be experienced in the lives of people.


- So how will people be conquered? Through other people.

- How will wars begin? Between nations of people.

- Who will experience famine? People will, through other people's economic greed.

I agree that know one will see these horsemen. But once again, since the seals, trumpets and bowls and the reign of the beast are all linked to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then these events must take place in close proximity to His return and not over a period of 1900 years. The first four seals will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period of the last generation.

The seven years mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is divided up into two literal 3 1/2 year periods which are also covered in Revelation as 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time. This seven year period will be initiated by that ruler, the antichrist establishing his seven year covenant with Israel. The Lord returns after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

 

[Ahwatukee]

We cannot say for certain the beast is one and only one person. Same with the false prophet. When you make one false declaration and then insist on pegging it to other prophesies you then wind up making many false assumptions.

Yes, we definitely can say that the beast and the false are two individuals, as revealed from the following:

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone."

So, we have the definite article being used for both the beast and the false prophet, with each being present in the singular. We also have the scripture which states that "these two" will be thrown alive into the lake of fire. This would demonstrate that the beast and the false prophet are two individual persons.

Why your decalaration might be false: If we hold God to saying that "prophet" in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 means one prophet and only one prophet, we then make God out to be a liar, since we know that more than one prophet followed Moses. Likewise, if we hold God to saying that the "man of lawlessness" is one and only one person, we also might be mis-interpreting God's word.

You comparison is not applicable here because as I pointed out above, the beast and the false prophet are both identified as individual persons. The number of the beast is also identified as "the number of a man." We also have them mentioned as individuals in the following scripture:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

While we know that God has had many prophets, that is not the case here. The beast and the false prophet will be two individual persons.

Perhaps why God chose to use the singular "prophet" and "man of lawlessness" instead of using a plural term is to indicate that each person might have one around during their own lifetime.

What have you to say?

As described above, the book or Revelation identifies both the beast and the false prophet as individual persons who will play their parts during the time of God's wrath with Christ returning at the end. Though there have been types of antichrist's throughout history, Revelation does not infer multiple beasts and false prophets in this scenario. There is the first beast and the second beast. The first beast is the antichrist and the second beast is identified as the false prophet in Rev.16:13 and 19:20. The second beast is recognized as being the false prophet because they are both linked as the one who performs those miraculous signs.

The beast/antichrist will be that ruler proclaiming himself to be God and All who dwell on the earth will worship him.

The false prophet will be the head of the coming one-world religious system and will be the antichrist's religious side-kick performing those miracles, signs and wonders for the purpose of lending credibility to the first beast in his claim of being God and thereby deceiving the inhabitants of the earth by them.

 

[Yahshua]

Actually, my discernment of what is literal and what is symbolic is based on scripture and common sense. The letters to the churches, their commendations, rebukes and warnings to repent and overcome, were to those literal churches as examples and to the entire church period. However, from chapter 4 onward which is the "what will take place later" part of what John was told to write, is still future. Currently, we are still living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord gathers the church, then the "what must take place later" will begin.

But Ahwatukee, you're injecting that teaching - that chapter 4 onward is future for *US* - into the text when it isn't literally said.

True, it's all future for *John*, but we weren't with John when he wrote Revelation. That's literally the definition of pigeonholing. These are nearly 2000-year-old writings. Has the Almighty done nothing in nearly 2000 years? Remember, He does NOTHING without first revealing it to his servants (Amos 3:7), which is what we're literally told is the purpose of the book of Revelation in the first chapter.

Unfortunately, you're forcing the text to fit a point of view you hold.

We don't hear about any specific timeframes like 3.5 years until *AFTER* the 6th trumpet. But all the trumpets are AFTER the 7th seal, which is AFTER the first 6 seals are broken.

...This demonstrates that the time of the beasts reign will be in close proximity to when Christ returns."

I have to disagree. All it demonstrates is that the beast and false prophet will manifest sometime *BEFORE* the Messiah returns. It doesn't say anything about proximity. You have to assume close proximity because you're injecting a 7 year period for all of the judgments, which isn't in the text.


If I can illustrate it, here's what you're doing, with respect:


1. The end times judgments (ALL seals, trumpets, bowls) are 7 years long...

2. The Messiah will appear soon after the beast & false prophet appear because he captures them soon after.

3. And because of that, the judgments can't have been fulfilled throughout history.


It's circular reasoning. You can't use your conclusions for your proof of your conclusions.

There is nothing in the scripture that states they are spirits.

There's nothing in heaven that's not a spirit. Even John was said to be "in the spirit on the Lord's day" when he entered heaven and saw these visions. But at least we agree on the horsemen not being seen. As I said, I agree with a lot of what you've said in earlier posts, just not on chronology/timeframe.

The first four seals will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period of the last generation.

This is impossible.

Even if we just make just a basic list of the book's chronology...ignoring interpretation for now...we read the following:


- Seals 1-7 are broken

- Trumpets 1-6 sound

- 1260 days (42 months) for two witnesses

- 7th trumpet sound

- time, times and a half (1260 days) for woman

- 42 months for the beast of the sea

- the rest of chapters 13-22


Surely you can see that you're incorrect?


----


It's probably best to focus on the Messiah's Olivet discourse since I hope to prove that it's the start of Revelation's chronology. Just follow me for a moment...


Mark 13:1-4
And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


So here's Mark's account saying the same thing as Matthew 24 and Luke 21. That's three witnesses.


Do you see that the disciples asked when the 2nd temple will be destroyed? The 2nd temple being destroyed was a huge deal to them when they heard it.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Yes, we definitely can say that the beast and the false are two individuals, as revealed from the following:

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone."

So, we have the definite article being used for both the beast and the false prophet, with each being present in the singular. We also have the scripture which states that "these two" will be thrown alive into the lake of fire. This would demonstrate that the beast and the false prophet are two individual persons.

Herbrews 9:27 - Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

If these two are indeed individual persons, then where is their (1st) death and judgement?
ANSWER: Satan has already been judged. The beast and the false prophet are manifestations of Satan and thereby have already been judged. This is why they can be thrown "alive into the lake of fire" without experiencing the 1st death and judgement. that follows .

Otherwise you have revealed a contradiction in scripture. But I think the error is not in scripture, it is in your rigged interpretation.

 

[garee]

1. The Bible must be read and interpreted in its plain literal sense when that is the sense. And this is generally the case.
he does not just send words withut meaning he does the signifying ..Just as he sends it

2. Metaphors, symbols, parables and figures of speech must be accepted as such, and interpreted through what is already revealed in Scripture.

Let's take the example of the beasts in Revelation 13 and correctly interpret them.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

With all respect..

The first verse in Revelation set the interpretation standard .I would question. Why would some want to make it (signified) without effect?

My Home church that has a great format for drawing in and strengthening by the preaching the gospel where I heard the gospel They had that kind of ideology. It never seemed to ring true . Right from the beginning The literal needed much explaining . I developed a love for the Proverbs which are moral parables. I think of it as Manna, a word that literally means: What is it?. It was used to stop the murmuring of the unbelieving Jews in the wilderness.

God, I believe does not want us to think we have familiarity as if he was a man as us to begin with. We are born spiritually separate with no ears by which we could hear His voice. He is either hot or cold not like warm as in familiarity . That which the Father has with the Son alone.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:

That what you offered would seem to conflict the law of interpretation that without parables the prescription to rightly divide Christ spoke not. . . hiding the spiritual understanding from natural man who is given the number 666 as beast of the field. As those who will not by the truth of the gospel but sell it seeing no value in the things not seen.(no faith) Like Esau sold his birth responsibility for a cup of soup or Cain for some temporal peace of mind a (belly full) The idea of a God not seen, out of mind.

666...a metaphor... so as the grains of sand, if we could number the grains of sands we could know the number of mankind that were to be created .(In the billions )

Genesis 13:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

I will add a little color hope you do not mind.

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

! Corinthians 2: 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Using the prescription 20/20 according to the manner above . Not in the words which man's wisdom teach the "literal understanding." . . . to search them out. Looking to the things seen in the parables to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. Comparing the spiritual unseen to the same .

Revelation 20 is filled, according to the signified interpretation with hidden nuggets called hidden manna in chapter 2.

Let's take the example taking the temporal things literally not seen and search for the hiden eternal understanding. Like the key we know it represents the gospel as that which losens or bind the will of God as the hand of God

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If we search ot the signified langauge as for silver or gold we can find the nuggets of faith or pearl of great price

 

[Yahshua]

With all respect..

The first verse in Revelation set the interpretation standard .I would question. Why would some want to make it (signified) without effect?

My Home church that has a great format for drawing in and strengthening by the preaching the gospel where I heard the gospel They had that kind of ideology. It never seemed to ring true . Right from the beginning The literal needed much explaining . I developed a love for the Proverbs which are moral parables. I think of it as Manna, a word that literally means: What is it?. It was used to stop the murmuring of the unbelieving Jews in the wilderness.

God, I believe does not want us to think we have familiarity as if he was a man as us to begin with. We are born spiritually separate with no ears by which we could hear His voice. He is either hot or cold not like warm as in familiarity . That which the Father has with the Son alone.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:

That what you offered would seem to conflict the law of interpretation that without parables the prescription to rightly divide Christ spoke not. . . hiding the spiritual understanding from natural man who is given the number 666 as beast of the field. As those who will not by the truth of the gospel but sell it seeing no value in the things not seen.(no faith) Like Esau sold his birth responsibility for a cup of soup or Cain for some temporal peace of mind a (belly full) The idea of a God not seen, out of mind.

666...a metaphor... so as the grains of sand, if we could number the grains of sands we could know the number of mankind that were to be created .(In the billions )

Genesis 13:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

I will add a little color hope you do not mind.

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

! Corinthians 2: 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Using the prescription 20/20 according to the manner above . Not in the words which man's wisdom teach the "literal understanding." . . . to search them out. Looking to the things seen in the parables to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. Comparing the spiritual unseen to the same .

Revelation 20 is filled, according to the signified interpretation with hidden nuggets called hidden manna in chapter 2.

Let's take the example taking the temporal things literally not seen and search for the hiden eternal understanding. Like the key we know it represents the gospel as that which losens or bind the will of God as the hand of God

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If we search ot the signified langauge as for silver or gold we can find the nuggets of faith or pearl of great price

Good points. And I think you've explained "interpretation" much better than I have.

"...He sent and signified it."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, you denying something doesn't make it not true, especially when it's literally shown for all to see. We have the scriptures. I posted even them word for word. It doesn't matter which version you read each one shows the same exact thing.

1. The disciples tried to show off the 2nd temple to the Messiah.

2. The Messiah said the 2nd temple will be destroyed.

3. The disciples then ask "when" will it happen, and what will be the sign of the Messiah's return.

4. The Messiah then answers step by step, in order

Thanks, You just tried to show how I was in error. Then you continued to prove I was right.

And by the way, You missed the other question. The question about the end of the Age.

So there was three questions. Which proves I was right, in that when will the temple be destroyed is NOT the only question.

Next.....

 

[preston39]

Actually, my discernment of what is literal and what is symbolic is based on scripture and common sense. The letters to the churches, their commendations, rebukes and warnings to repent and overcome, were to those literal churches as examples and to the entire church period. However, from chapter 4 onward which is the "what will take place later" part of what John was told to write, is still future. Currently, we are still living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the Lord gathers the church, then the "what must take place later" will begin.



When Isaiah prophesied to king Ahaz, he told him "the Lord himself will give you a sign. A virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and will call him Emmanuel." That prophecy was given about 700 years prior to when Jesus was born. So, the fulfillment didn't take place until approximately 700 years later. It is the same here in Revelation. These prophesies regarding God's wrath are meant to take place in conjunction with the Lord's return to end the age. We know this because, when the Lord returns the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. This demonstrates that the time of the beasts reign will be in close proximity to when Christ returns. Therefore, these events of wrath which are described as taking place leading up to the Lord's return demonstrate that these could not have been fulfilled throughout history, but must happen during the beasts reign when all of the people of the earth will worship him. We have had nothing like this happen yet. And speaking of his reign, it will be during that last 3 1/2 years that he will set up the abomination and proclaim himself to be God until the end when Jesus returns to end the age. The problem with your claims is that, Jesus has not yet returned.



Why wouldn't you think that they would not manifest the same in the physical world? After all, that is where God's wrath is going to take place. The seals, trumpets and bowls are meant to be fulfilled during that last seven years and that to punish a Christ rejecting world. The first four horses and their riders, are symbolic representing their results. There is nothing in the scripture that states they are spirits, but symbols. We do however have four angels that are mentioned in Rev.7 who are said to be given power to harm the land, trees and the sea. They are responsible for the trumpets and bowl judgments. These are all going to be actual events that, for the most part, will decimate the population of the earth. This period of wrath is also known as the day of the Lord. The following is what Zephaniah prophesied about this period:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” says the LORD.

“I will sweep away people and animals alike.

I will sweep away the birds of the sky and the fish in the sea.

I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, and I will wipe humanity from the face of the earth,” says the LORD.

The above is going to be the results of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.



I agree that know one will see these horsemen. But once again, since the seals, trumpets and bowls and the reign of the beast are all linked to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then these events must take place in close proximity to His return and not over a period of 1900 years. The first four seals will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period of the last generation.

The seven years mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is divided up into two literal 3 1/2 year periods which are also covered in Revelation as 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time. This seven year period will be initiated by that ruler, the antichrist establishing his seven year covenant with Israel. The Lord returns after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

Excellent summary.
However, for clarification....the AC confirms the covenant .

 

[Yahshua]

Thanks, You just tried to show how I was in error. Then you continued to prove I was right.

And by the way, You missed the other question. The question about the end of the Age.

So there was three questions. Which proves I was right, in that when will the temple be destroyed is NOT the only question.

Next.....

(It's like talking with children..)

There's a record of everything posted on this thread. And these threads have a 5 minute edit limit so nothing can be changed later on. It's clear what you originally said.

----

Did the disciples ask when the 2nd temple would be destroyed first?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Excellent summary.
However, for clarification....the AC confirms the covenant .

Confirm is fine, as long it is understood that the ruler/antichrist is the one who is making the covenant. In other words, he is not confirming a covenant that was made by somebody else.

After looking at all the major translations some say, "makes a treaty, makes a strong covenant, will make a firm covenant, a firm agreement," etc. Just as it is understood that the word "confirm" carries the meaning of him as being the one who enacts the covenant. The word gabar translated as "confirm" is defined as follow:

Strong's Concordance
gabar: to be strong, mighty
Original Word: גָּבַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gabar
Phonetic Spelling: (gaw-bar')
Definition: to be strong, mighty

Therefore, the word means that the covenant that he makes is a firm one, or a strong one, i.e. he makes a strong covenant.

The reason that I point this out is that, many have attempted to take the antichrist out of the equation as the one who is making the covenant by the use of that word "confirm," to one who is confirming an already existing covenant, which is false. To be clear, that ruler/antichrist is the one who establishes the seven year covenant with Israel, which he breaks in the middle of the seven by causing the sacrifices and offerings to cease and the setting up of the abomination.

 

[preston39]

Daniel 9; 27 if my memory serves me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(It's like talking with children..)

There's a record of everything posted on this thread. And these threads have a 5 minute edit limit so nothing can be changed later on. It's clear what you originally said.

----

Did the disciples ask when the 2nd temple would be destroyed first?

Yes there is a record of what I said

And my response to this question was this

He did NOT just answer that question

Because if you think the whole things jesus answered only concerned that question, (like MOST of you do, placing all these things in one time period because they ALL pointed to one event. you would be WRONG

I tried to get you to think, But instead you went and PROVED MY POINT, and here you are still arguing with me..