Revelation in Chronological Order?

[Ahwatukee]

To get to the next questions we work through the first...

Christ answers the disciples first question (2nd temple destruction) with a series of events...we have the benefit of knowing that the 70AD destruction = "The Desolation" mentioned here.

The question regarding the destruction of the temple was already given before the disciples even asked the question. Please keep that in mind.

Conclusion: The first 6 broken seals of Revelation are the same events the Messiah prophesied would lead up to 70AD destruction of the temple, the *start* of the Great Tribulation (i.e. wrath against the Jews), and *start* of the end times.

The great tribulation is not wrath against the Jews!

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."

The great tribulation will affect the entire world, not just the Jews. When the Lord says that the great tribulation will be "unmatched" that includes the flood and any other event of wrath that took place prior to the Lord's warning and everything up to the time He said it, never to be equaled. This great tribulation will involve the entire world and not just Israel.

You had better go back and reread about the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in Revelation, because they are geared towards the entire world.

When the 1st trumpets sounds, a third of the earth and trees are burned up, not a third of Israel!

When the 2nd trumpets sounds, a third of the creatures in the sea die and their of the ships are destroyed. A third is in comparison to the entire world.

I could go on an on in that these events of wrath showing that they will be directed at the entire world, but you don't get it.

How about the 4th bowl? when it is poured out the sun will be given power to scorch the inhabitants with intense heat. Do you think that the area of Israel is the only place the sun shines on?

When the oceans and fresh water are turned to blood as a result of the 2nd and 3rd bowls, will that just be the Mediterranean and the sea of Galilee, or all of the oceans and fresh water?

Once the beast comes up out of the Abyss and kills to the two witnesses, does Revelation say that Israel will gloat over them and send gifts to each other, or does it say that people from every tribe and language and nation gloat over them, and will celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them?

Because of your historical view, you have no idea of what is soon going to come up this earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

While I don't hold to a literal 7 years, yes the 70AD desolation of Jerusalem must be the start of the birth pangs and the end times.

...now of course how that has been or is being played out is what we're all still wrestling with.

The temple life was such a big deal to the disciples. For the Messiah not to have warned them about it isn't something he would've done...but with our current view of pushing the Olivet discourse prophecies into the future it means they weren't warned at all about 70AD.

They WERE warned of it (in the part of the Olivet Discourse covering the 70ad events [parallel Matt22:7], i.e. Lk21:12-24a ONLY, with v.24b following on from there; the REST of the Olivet Discourse is "far-future" [and involving the 144,000 "servants of our God"; parallel Matt22:8's "servants"]).


So the SEQUENCE goes:

70ad events ("SEE-[Jeru surrounded]-then-FLEE")...... //…"beginning birth PANGS[/SEALS]".... "SEE-[AoD-singular]-then-FLEE"[/mid-trib]... rest of the trib yrs [3.5y] to His Second Coming to the earth



So, two parts of the Olivet Discourse: 70ad events (Lk21:12-24) and far-future (all the rest of the Olivet Discourse; with that "future, specific, limited time period" leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth)

 

[Yahshua]

So, "the desolation THEREOF" (Lk21:20) is just ONE "desolation" of PLURAL "desolaTIONS" Dan9:26 speaks of, but not speaking of the LATTER "abominaTION of desolaTION [singular]" of Dan12:11 specifically (and of which Jesus spoke in Matt24:15, and why I believe the "THEREFORE" is also stated here in v.15 [meaning, this FOLLOWS or, is AFTER] "the beginning of birth PANGS" / SEALS of vv.4-8, i.e. far-future], unlike the SEQUENCE in Lk21 [where the 70ad events come BEFORE "the beg. of BPs"])

It's hard to follow you with all the brackets and parentheses, but from what I get it seems you've based your replies on one word that's plural in English to prove multiple desolation events. And yet while you agree that 70AD destruction was one such desolation you believe in multiple later on...simply because of the word is plural in one passage but singular in the passage in question?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's hard to follow you with all the brackets and parentheses, but from what I get it seems you've based your replies on one word that's plural in English to prove multiple desolation events. And yet while you agree that 70AD destruction was one such desolation you believe in multiple later on...simply because of the word is plural in one passage but singular in the passage in question?

"desolaTIONS [plural]" only technically requires 2


...so my "sequence" illustration (of what is being said) demonstrates at least that (/at least that much).

The SEQUENCE:

1) the 70ad events ("SEE-then-FLEE" re: Jerusalem compassed with armies (desolation-singular); also in Matt22:7)

2) "the beginning of birth PANGS [/SEALS]" - Mt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11

3) "SEE-then-FLEE" (AoD-singular; Dan12:11/Matt24:15 [FOLLOWING the BoBPs], etc)

4) 2nd Coming to the earth (Rev19)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

simply because of the word is plural in one passage but singular in the passage in question?

"simply because"... not exactly... I mean, it is just ONE FACTOR among so many others (to take into consideration).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

based your replies on one word that's plural in English

Do you see any distinctions between the following "H8074" ? :

Dan9:26 - https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-26.htm
שֹׁמֵמֽוֹת׃
šō-mê-mō-wṯ. desolations V-Qal-Prtcpl-fp [fem plural]


Dan12:11 - https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/12-11.htm

שֹׁמֵ֑ם
šō-mêm; of desolation V-Qal-Prtcpl-ms [masc singular]




[I don't think the differences are merely in the English, to boot]

 

[Yahshua]

The above is false! Jesus gave the disciples warning about the destruction of the temple before they asked their question about the signs of His coming and the end of the age.

"Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!”

So the above is the information regarding the destruction of the temple and since the Lord already told them about the destruction of the temple, He doesn't comment on it any more, but focuses in on their question regarding the signs of His coming and the end of the age.

I gave the account three times...in three different gospels...word for word, showing that they asked WHEN the destruction of the 2nd temple would happen after he mentioned it, and you ignored each of those sections. Every. Single. Time.

I can't.

The Olivet Discourse is about the future, the very last seven years of the last generation:

[...]

I guarantee you that you will begin to see the events literally taking place in the future which you are claiming took place in the past, except they will be taking place in the literal sense, i.e. a literal third of the earth and trees being burned up, demonic beings being released from the Abyss, the heat of the sun scorching the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, etc., etc.

Once you see them taking place verbatim, then you will understand (or you should) that these where not past historic events. For example, when you see some future political ruler establish a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their temple, that should be a red flag to you and those who believe as you do, that the time of God's wrath will have begun with all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to follow. Once you see this event, then you can expect peace to be taken from the entire world at the next seal, then famine with the combined result of a fourth of the earths population killed within a 3 1/2 period.

I hope that at that time you will realize the false teachings that you have believed in.

OK thanks.

The great tribulation is not wrath against the Jews!

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."

The great tribulation will affect the entire world, not just the Jews. When the Lord says that the great tribulation will be "unmatched" that includes the flood and any other event of wrath that took place prior to the Lord's warning and everything up to the time He said it, never to be equaled. This great tribulation will involve the entire world and not just Israel.

This is why we're supposed to study ALL of the scriptures together, "line upon line, here a little, there a little". We can't get the full picture without taking all three accounts together.


Luke 21:20-23
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress [i.e. Great Tribulation] in the land, and WRATH upon THIS people.

24 And THEY shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The fall of the Jews = The Time of the Gentiles
(Romans 11)​

You had better go back and reread about the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in Revelation, because they are geared towards the entire world.

When the 1st trumpets sounds, a third of the earth and trees are burned up, not a third of Israel!

When the 2nd trumpets sounds, a third of the creatures in the sea die and their of the ships are destroyed. A third is in comparison to the entire world.

I could go on an on in that these events of wrath showing that they will be directed at the entire world, but you don't get it.

How about the 4th bowl? when it is poured out the sun will be given power to scorch the inhabitants with intense heat. Do you think that the area of Israel is the only place the sun shines on?

When the oceans and fresh water are turned to blood as a result of the 2nd and 3rd bowls, will that just be the Mediterranean and the sea of Galilee, or all of the oceans and fresh water?

Once the beast comes up out of the Abyss and kills to the two witnesses, does Revelation say that Israel will gloat over them and send gifts to each other, or does it say that people from every tribe and language and nation gloat over them, and will celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them?

Because of your historical view, you have no idea of what is soon going to come up this earth.

I only mentioned the first 6 seals again so far, not the trumpets or the bowls. But the trumpets did affect the entire world. The entire world was the Roman Empire. There was nothing else but the Roman Empire. There wasn't a nation called Great Britain, or America, or Canada or Australia, etc yet.

The first 6 trumpets were a judgment by the Almighty on the entire world. He broke up the Roman world into the two legs of IRON (Eastern & Western Roman Empires) and then broke it further into the 10 Toe nations that are currently a mixture of Greco-Roman influences (IRON) and Arabic influences ("Arab" is the Hebrew translated as CLAY) that currently can't cleve together.

- Rome provided the culture (sports, government, religion, etc) that every nation emulates.
- Arabia provided the sciences (mathematics / Arabic numerals, art / archetecture, etc.) that every nation teaches its children.

We've been living through the 10-toe mixed nations.

The Bowls are about to, or currently are going over the known world (i.e. present nations). This is why they're a repeat of the trumpets, but without mentioning "1/3 here and 1/3 there" because the judgment is across all seven continents... but I can't seem to get through any summary of this because we can't agree on what the scriptures actually say that begin it! lol

 

[Yahshua]

We do not have to work through the first. If everyone agrees that the first question was fulfilled in. 70 ad

Next!!!!!!

That's now sequences work. Skipping ahead is when there's confusion most times, with anything.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So the 70AD destruction = the events of the 6th seal = Beginning wrath upon the Jews for rejecting the Messiah.

This cannot be.

Because, verse 12 says "But BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE ALL these beginning of birth pangs (i.e. the SEALS; BEFORE ALL THESE BoBPs/SEALS)] the 70ad events [vv.12-24a] must take place...


[Matt24:4-8 = Mk13:5-8 = Lk21:8-11 (BoBPs/SEALS)...<---so BEFORE ALL these (Lk21:12[12-24a])]

 

[Yahshua]

Do you see any distinctions between the following "H8074" ? :

Dan9:26 - https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-26.htm
שֹׁמֵמֽוֹת׃
šō-mê-mō-wṯ. desolations V-Qal-Prtcpl-fp [fem plural]


Dan12:11 - https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/12-11.htm

שֹׁמֵ֑ם
šō-mêm; of desolation V-Qal-Prtcpl-ms [masc singular]


[I don't think the differences are merely in the English, to boot]

Daniel 9:24-26
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


"ve [and] ad [until] kes [end] mil [of] HA mah [the war] nehereset [are determined] shamemovt [desolations]"

And unto the end of THE ("HA" = definite article) war are determined desolations (wastes). It doesn't imply multiple desolation "events" but constant wasting; ongoing ruin. The same word is translated as a singular "desolation" in Isaiah 49:8.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I believe there's no chronological order. It's more like a causal/archetypal order because Revelation describes past present and future so it always comes to pass (Rev 1:19).

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe there's no chronological order. It's more like a causal/archetypal order because Revelation describes past present and future so it always comes to pass (Rev 1:19).

Hello SoulWeaver!

You are correct regarding Rev.1:19, but it is not describing the past. John was told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

Currently, we are in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the church has been gathered, the "what must take place later" will begin, which are the events of God's wrath and all related information.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in chronological order, which is why they are labeled one thru seven. Think of a scroll with seven seals on it, with each wax seal adhering to the parchment. When the 1st seal is opened, it will only peal back until it comes to the second wax seal, which is unbroken and therefore still adhering to the parchment. And the same goes for each consecutive seal.

By breaking and opening the 1st seal, only the information contained on that part of the parchment can be read. In order to see what is written under the second seal, it has to be broken from the parchment and so on. That said, if the say someone tried to open the 3rd seal first, it could not be opened because seals 1 and 2 would still be adhering to the parchment in front of it and seals 4, 5 , 6 and 7 would be adhering to the parchment after it. Attempting to open the 3rd seal first would result in ripping the scroll prior to and after the 3rd seal, making a mess of it.

So, you can be sure that the seals will be opened in the exact order that they appear in Revelation. And that goes for the trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Hello SoulWeaver!

You are correct regarding Rev.1:19, but it is not describing the past. John was told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

Currently, we are in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the church has been gathered, the "what must take place later" will begin, which are the events of God's wrath and all related information.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in chronological order, which is why they are labeled one thru seven. Think of a scroll with seven seals on it, with each wax seal adhering to the parchment. When the 1st seal is opened, it will only peal back until it comes to the second wax seal, which is unbroken and therefore still adhering to the parchment. And the same goes for each consecutive seal.

By breaking and opening the 1st seal, only the information contained on that part of the parchment can be read. In order to see what is written under the second seal, it has to be broken from the parchment and so on. That said, if the say someone tried to open the 3rd seal first, it could not be opened because seals 1 and 2 would still be adhering to the parchment in front of it and seals 4, 5 , 6 and 7 would be adhering to the parchment after it. Attempting to open the 3rd seal first would result in ripping the scroll prior to and after the 3rd seal, making a mess of it.

So, you can be sure that the seals will be opened in the exact order that they appear in Revelation. And that goes for the trumpets and bowl judgments.

I did not say there was no order. I just don't see these things like a timeline.
I respect your opinion, yet we simply disagree on this.