Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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Let me help...
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:16-18)
You have not answered my question. Can you reconcile Jn 3:16-18 with Matt 25:31-46 or at least show that Matt 25 applies to the Christian.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:16-18)
You have not answered my question. Can you reconcile Jn 3:16-18 with Matt 25:31-46 or at least show that Matt 25 applies to the Christian.
That Sabbath was a high day. That weekly Sabbath was a high Sabbath, because the first day of Unleavened Bread occurred on that Sabbath day.
The Old Testament does not say the the first day of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath. Since the first day of Unleavened Bread is not a complete rest day, like the Sabbath day is. You can cook, etc, on the that first day of Unleavened Bread.
The scripture never calls the Feast of Unleavened Bread a Sabbath day and nor should you.
The Old Testament does not say the the first day of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath. Since the first day of Unleavened Bread is not a complete rest day, like the Sabbath day is. You can cook, etc, on the that first day of Unleavened Bread.
The scripture never calls the Feast of Unleavened Bread a Sabbath day and nor should you.
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well i am completely aware that there is a line of thinking that "high sabbath" means a regular feast day sabbath happened to fall on a weekly sabbath day.
i am not of that persuasion, as you have surmised, lol. i take 'high sabbath' to refer to a feast day sabbath, rather than a 'normal' sabbath.
insofar as the question of whether the sabbaths of the days of Unleavened Bread are sabbaths, well --
here is an article that explains it better than i can ((i would only be paraphrasing the same)) -- but if you look at what is forbidden on the days of Unleavened Bread - mentioned first in Exodus 12, while sabbath is never mentioned until Exodus 16 - they are the same things. ubiquitous Jewish understanding is that the sabbaths of the feasts are equal in 'sabbathness' as the weekly sabbath, the difference being that they are 'feast sabbaths' -- hence their designation as 'high sabbaths' rather than a 'normal' or 'low' sabbath that occurs every seven per month.
http://messyanic.com/2014/06/15/no-work-vs-no-servile-work/
on the one hand i don't want to belabour the point, because i was just butting into the middle of teleperson with yet another one of his false doctrines to explain that the crucifixion wasn't on a friday, but on the other hand i kinda do want to belabor the point because IMO this 98 page thread was solved 50 pages ago or more, and is only kept alive by the same teleperson continuing to spread false teachings that have been debunked many times over in this very thread and many other threads since he 'graced us' with his presence some years ago.
so this is more interesting to talk about; only other hope for this thread is he keeps repeating his nonsense and we keep patiently refuting it, even tho he never listens to anything we try to teach him. i'm at this point where, do i want to keep saying the same things over and over and enduring his slander? or talk about something with someone who actually listens, that is actually getting somewhere?
what should be pointed out as part of this aside, is that 'sabbath' literally means 'seventh' -- same word in Hebrew for a week as it is for the particular day they were commanded to observe each week. so it makes perfect sense that a day marking a part of a yearly feast, upon which they were to ceremonially observe the same restrictions as every 'seventh' would not be referred to as a 'seventh' -- it isn't a seventh, it's a day on which no work should be done, either by you or your servants, except what is necessary. just like the seventh day; equivalent to the seventh ((IOW 'sabbath'))
where we are disagreeing fundamentally tho is what is a 'high sabbath' -- and for that we are going to wind up looking at Talmud, whether we like it or not, because John uses a peculiarly Jewish term for a peculiarly Jewish observation of a peculiarly Jewish commandment in a peculiarly Jewish covenant. IMO our best resources for that are going to be specifically Jewish resources, and then we will be sitting there looking at what primarily unbelieving Jews wrote, wondering how much we can trust their thought processes.
this is a journey worth going on.
continuing to waste our time talking to teleperson, i am not so sure it is worthwhile in any sense.
maybe i am wrong -- i would like to find out
i am not of that persuasion, as you have surmised, lol. i take 'high sabbath' to refer to a feast day sabbath, rather than a 'normal' sabbath.
insofar as the question of whether the sabbaths of the days of Unleavened Bread are sabbaths, well --
And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
(Leviticus 23:6-8)
note this phrase: "ye shall do no servile work therein"here is an article that explains it better than i can ((i would only be paraphrasing the same)) -- but if you look at what is forbidden on the days of Unleavened Bread - mentioned first in Exodus 12, while sabbath is never mentioned until Exodus 16 - they are the same things. ubiquitous Jewish understanding is that the sabbaths of the feasts are equal in 'sabbathness' as the weekly sabbath, the difference being that they are 'feast sabbaths' -- hence their designation as 'high sabbaths' rather than a 'normal' or 'low' sabbath that occurs every seven per month.
http://messyanic.com/2014/06/15/no-work-vs-no-servile-work/
on the one hand i don't want to belabour the point, because i was just butting into the middle of teleperson with yet another one of his false doctrines to explain that the crucifixion wasn't on a friday, but on the other hand i kinda do want to belabor the point because IMO this 98 page thread was solved 50 pages ago or more, and is only kept alive by the same teleperson continuing to spread false teachings that have been debunked many times over in this very thread and many other threads since he 'graced us' with his presence some years ago.
so this is more interesting to talk about; only other hope for this thread is he keeps repeating his nonsense and we keep patiently refuting it, even tho he never listens to anything we try to teach him. i'm at this point where, do i want to keep saying the same things over and over and enduring his slander? or talk about something with someone who actually listens, that is actually getting somewhere?
what should be pointed out as part of this aside, is that 'sabbath' literally means 'seventh' -- same word in Hebrew for a week as it is for the particular day they were commanded to observe each week. so it makes perfect sense that a day marking a part of a yearly feast, upon which they were to ceremonially observe the same restrictions as every 'seventh' would not be referred to as a 'seventh' -- it isn't a seventh, it's a day on which no work should be done, either by you or your servants, except what is necessary. just like the seventh day; equivalent to the seventh ((IOW 'sabbath'))
where we are disagreeing fundamentally tho is what is a 'high sabbath' -- and for that we are going to wind up looking at Talmud, whether we like it or not, because John uses a peculiarly Jewish term for a peculiarly Jewish observation of a peculiarly Jewish commandment in a peculiarly Jewish covenant. IMO our best resources for that are going to be specifically Jewish resources, and then we will be sitting there looking at what primarily unbelieving Jews wrote, wondering how much we can trust their thought processes.
this is a journey worth going on.
continuing to waste our time talking to teleperson, i am not so sure it is worthwhile in any sense.
maybe i am wrong -- i would like to find out
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A simple question.
Jesus died and was buried on the day of preparation for a Sabbath, in three of the four gospels.
Where in Leviticus does it specify the preparation day for your high Sabbath day?
The text does not mention a complete rest from all work, only servile (laborious) work.
Once again, I did not see the word sabbath mentioned in Leviticus 23:6-8.
Jesus died and was buried on the day of preparation for a Sabbath, in three of the four gospels.
Where in Leviticus does it specify the preparation day for your high Sabbath day?
The text does not mention a complete rest from all work, only servile (laborious) work.
Once again, I did not see the word sabbath mentioned in Leviticus 23:6-8.
Well brother, at least you were able to see the false teaching.
There are many who are tangled up in this same web, and It's very difficult to open their eyes. I have tried for many years, to show them that they are not, on the narrow path Jesus gave us to follow. We are all blind to this path when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is exactly why we receive this gift. And without teachers, who can guide them to the teachings of the Holy Spirit, they have naturally resigned themselves to one of the many doctrines. This is why I try to get them to follow the Spirit.... who can convince them. We have one on here who accepted the challenge and is now being taught by the Holy Spirit. And now he knows the Truth.
And one is better than nothing.
At least I have made some discoveries along the way. For the life of me, I couldn't understand why people kept throwing Paul at me. It was like Paul was the savior and Jesus was his disciple. Now I understand, it's because they believe Paul is the Author of Salvation...for the Gentiles. And they will be saved by following his teachings, which are not foundational salvation teachings. They are like someone trying to build a foundation by starting on the second floor.
There are many who are tangled up in this same web, and It's very difficult to open their eyes. I have tried for many years, to show them that they are not, on the narrow path Jesus gave us to follow. We are all blind to this path when we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is exactly why we receive this gift. And without teachers, who can guide them to the teachings of the Holy Spirit, they have naturally resigned themselves to one of the many doctrines. This is why I try to get them to follow the Spirit.... who can convince them. We have one on here who accepted the challenge and is now being taught by the Holy Spirit. And now he knows the Truth.
And one is better than nothing.
At least I have made some discoveries along the way. For the life of me, I couldn't understand why people kept throwing Paul at me. It was like Paul was the savior and Jesus was his disciple. Now I understand, it's because they believe Paul is the Author of Salvation...for the Gentiles. And they will be saved by following his teachings, which are not foundational salvation teachings. They are like someone trying to build a foundation by starting on the second floor.
FreeGrace2 said:
What you DON'T believe that Jesus said is that eternal life is possessed when one becomes a believer. John 5:24
You have said eternal life is given at the end of one's life based on their lifestyle. That is blasphemy.
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Please find the verse that plainly teaches that loss of faith results in loss of salvation.
But, of course, you know as well as I that there is no such verse.
You believe what ISN'T in the Bible.
What you DON'T believe that Jesus said is that eternal life is possessed when one becomes a believer. John 5:24
You have said eternal life is given at the end of one's life based on their lifestyle. That is blasphemy.
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Please find the verse that plainly teaches that loss of faith results in loss of salvation.
But, of course, you know as well as I that there is no such verse.
You believe what ISN'T in the Bible.
Yep, people think Paul contradict Jesus teaching in Matt 25
If we read on contect, Paul not again Matt 25 et all
Paul teaching salvation by faith not by work is again Jews OT that was replace by the death of Jesus
So no more circumcicion, no more OT law,
But yes faith bear the fruit of love
Paul itself teach how love is the most in 1 Corinthian 13
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains,but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b]but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Is that faith or love the most
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Save by faith alone but faith that saved never alone
It will bear fruit it is love
If we read on contect, Paul not again Matt 25 et all
Paul teaching salvation by faith not by work is again Jews OT that was replace by the death of Jesus
So no more circumcicion, no more OT law,
But yes faith bear the fruit of love
Paul itself teach how love is the most in 1 Corinthian 13
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains,but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b]but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Is that faith or love the most
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Save by faith alone but faith that saved never alone
It will bear fruit it is love
Who has said that on this thread? It is John 5:24 and 10:28 that interpret Matt 25. You keep doing it backward. Starting with a much less clear verse and trying to figure out the very simple, plain and straightforward verses.
This is totally contradictory. If salvation is "by faith alone", then that faith IS alone. Period.
It is either alone or it is not alone. It can't be both.
This is totally contradictory. If salvation is "by faith alone", then that faith IS alone. Period.
It is either alone or it is not alone. It can't be both.
Matthew 25:37-39
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
When did we see You?
These are not works the righteous (faithful) were aware of.
As God leads the righteous (faithful) to give to the least of His brothers, they give.
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Isaiah 26:12
LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
God works through the believer.
Not the believer works for God.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
When did we see You?
These are not works the righteous (faithful) were aware of.
As God leads the righteous (faithful) to give to the least of His brothers, they give.
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Isaiah 26:12
LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
God works through the believer.
Not the believer works for God.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God saves the believer through grace and not by their works; but He works through the believer.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God saves the believer through grace and not by their works; but He works through the believer.
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